My ummah will never agree upon an error

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by Misbah al-Hidaya, Dec 1, 2007.

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  1. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    dilon ko markaz e mehr o wafa kar
    hareem e kibriya sey ashnaa kar

    jisey naan e jaween bakhsi hai tu nay
    ussey bazu'ay Haider bhi ataa kar
  2. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    ham husn-e-zan-e-sohbat-e-aaqa pe makeeN haiN
    tum gard se poocho ke pata kya hai gumaaN ka
  3. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    bhayya, nowhere have i denied Ijma or infallibility of the ummah but rather tried to investigate ismah/infallibility; and what kind of attribute is it? is it necessary or sufficient? what are its implications and consequences? but in reply all i have had is ad hominem fallacy.
    i sincerely wish you well piyare bhayya.

    lastly, i would like to say and in no way it is sarcasm but reality of our situations:

    mumkin hai key tum jis ko samajtay ho bhaaran
    auron ki nighahon mein wo mausam ho khizaan ka.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2007
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    turned to your random sentence generator again?

    plainly: you are talking nonsense. and scurrying from one position to another because you cannot justify your madcap statements. i would not have bothered to answer, if the issues were not important. and whenever you are countered with a proof you change your proposition - now that you agree that
    i don't have much to say. anything else was not the part of my argument and you can open a separate thread if you like.

    may Allah ta'ala guide us and ye. wa billahi't tawfiq.
    wa's salam.

    as a moderator: people are allowed to discuss controversial matters in their sincere search for knowledge. but when things go awry, we will delete the posts and close the threads. because some people just want to argue and waste everybody's time.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2007
  5. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    piyare bhayya, as always you are missing the is just an exploration of the idea of ismah in terms of an usooli principle. please read carefully once again that the discussion is not about whether Ijma or infallibility of ummah is valid but rather whether it is justified to claim that ismah is necesary condition for Prophethood. if it is then this means that 'others' may not be infallible. if it is not a necessary condition then 'others' collective or individual can also be masum. can Ummah be of few people like only jurists or ahl al-hil wal aqad?

    what about the aayah where we are asked to obey an uli al-amr....see brother, God commanded unquestioning obedience to 'those in authority' the judgement of a person whose obedience is commanded by God must be immune from error. this is because God cannot command to obey a person who is apt to fall in error therefore it is definately proved that those mentioned in aayah are infallible or are they? here is an example for individuals not being on error, otherwise what is the point of their obedience along with God and Prophet(S)....i sincerely hope that you understand. May Allah bless you and your family. so there are questions of 'necessary quality' and what can be called an ummah in terms of not falling into error in legal matters i.e. not all peolple are jurists and uli al-amr..see aayah below:

    4:59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ

    وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ

    إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ

    الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً (4:59)

    Last edited: Nov 28, 2007
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in which case, i must seek your help in enquiring which book of kalam negates that this ummah is ma'aSum in general, though none in the ummah are individually ma'aSum.

    who is talking about iman? unless i missed it somewhere, we were talking about 'ismah' or 'divine protection'.

    anyway, imam taftazani said: [i assume you give him some respect, even if you don't recite his kalimah - because you demanded his proof somewhere]
    ...this proves that ijma'a is documentary evidence [hujjiyatu'l ijma'a] because the reports concerning the protection of this nation [`ismatu'l ummah] from error are massively agreed upon [mutawatiratu'l ma'ana] in spite of the difference in wording of the reports and that these reports are lone-narrator reports like the bravery of `ali radiyallahu `anhu - has an a undeniable existence.
    in simpler words, imam taftazani says:

    - there are reports of this nation [as a whole] being divinely protected (`ismatu'l ummah)

    - even though there is difference in wordings of the reports, they are agreed in meaning.

    - even though they are lone-narrator reports, they have the status of being reported massively,

    - they have a status of undeniability, such as the report of sayyiduna `ali's bravery raDiyallahu `anhu.

    would you say that mawla taftazani also needs to learn some ilm al-kalam because he says that this ummah is divinely protected and also offers justifications for it?
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  7. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    brother, please learn some ilm al-kalam so we can have a discussion rather than this chit-chat......

    difference between animals and aql
    difference between angels and humans...ikhtiyaar

    therefore humans are superior to both as category because we have aql and ikhtiyaar...although we share five senses with animals etc..

    it is on these basis that imaan is of five types:

    imaan matbu, imaan maqbul, imaan masum , imaan mauquf and imaan mardud...

    out of these imaan matbu is imaan of malaika...programmed.

    and imaan masum is imaan of Prophets(A)...

    please consult books usul al-eteqaad before we even can entertain this discussion.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is pointless to argue with you as it was with your predecessors here of varying shades...

    you conjure up this word 'entity' from nowhere to restrict 'ismah' or infallibility to prophets. `alayhimu's salatu wa's salam.

    so according to you, angels are either prophets or they are not ma'sum.
  9. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    what about this honourable brother?
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i am sorry and i apologize for my ignorance. but no. i don't get it.
  11. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    does the expression qaida kulliya ring a bell?
  12. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    Is not the Ummah Ghair Nabi regardless of being collective or individual ?
    so ismah is not a necessary quality of Prophethood? because if it was then an entity other than Prophets(a) cannot be masum...

  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yes, the ummah as a whole is ma'Sum even though individually they are not. if you cannot understand that difference, it means that there is still plenty to learn.

    curiously, it is this principle of generality that allows muslims to send la'anah on a group; but forbidden to curse individually. if you understand what i mean...

    so: does this mean you know better than the prophet `alayhi's salatu wa's salam?

    which usul are you talking about?
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  14. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    It is argued by scholars that only the Prophets(A) are masum/infallible and other people cannot be infallible. ..The statement is expressed in categoric terms that only Prophets are infallible....the statement expressed as Only or All is known as kulliya in usul....but if we also believe that it is impossible for the ijma/consensus of Ummah to be on dalalah/misguidance/error (as in ahadith above) then it means that the universal that only Prophets are infallible and cannot make an error or be misguided is not an absolute because here is an instance of non-prophets being masum.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  15. SA01

    SA01 Veteran

    I have this book of Professor Sahib........a truly magnificent piece of work, which my partner helps me understand as he is better at Urdu than I :)

    Brother Misbah......not sure whether I understand what you are asking/conveying. Could you please clarify?
  16. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    so this means that ghair-Nabi is also Masoom. The Kulliya that only Prophets are masoom is not true in light of the above reports...this amounts to say that non-prophet cannot also be in error.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  17. Muslimah

    Muslimah New Member


    Is there an english version of the book brother?

    its just that i can read urdu, but not much

    Walikum Aslaam
  18. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

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