on ghumaris

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by shahnawazgm, Apr 1, 2018.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who is it that needs rescue operation? and who runs away repeatedly?

    go ahead. let us hear you out.

    that sufyan al-thawri, like all sunni imams held that shaykhayn were afDal to mawla ali. that is the truth. but it is not us who is blinded.
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  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    that is all very plain to see.

    Great Imams have settled this issue centuries earlier and Alahazrat simplified it all for us - his firasah and wilayah and barakah and faidh stand towering like topless mountains before the entire modern-day tafzeel industry put together.

    look who's speaking. You are least bothered when a sahabi,a kaatib-al-wahyi no less, is attacked by 20st century deviants wearing the hats of shaykhdom.

    so you did learn a few tricks from the devbandis ...
  3. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Unfortunately, your hatred and bias has blinded you from the truth. You guys always come to rescue your buddy when he's finding it hard, and instead attack me, I'm sure other takfeeris will also soon appear
    AbdalQadir likes this.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    couldn't help smiling. when nawaz gets cross and snappy, it is an indication that he is frustrated and running out of red herrings. but i may be wrong. he may have an ace up his sleeve. so we will wait.
    sour grapes. just because YOU write like a teenager, you shouldn't expect others to do the same.

    notice that in the 'novel-nigari' that you accuse me of, i have showed that ubaydullah ibn musa was a shiyi. if you are not content with ibn hajar's quote, i can give you many more if you want. all you have to do is just ask (i have already checked some other sources). i also presented from the same source, that imam sufyan al-thawri did not hold tafdili belief even when he was in kufa.

    anyway: you might have noticed, i have been consistent that imam sufyan al-thawri did not hold the belief of tafzil. EVEN in kufa. that i showed from the citation that you yourself posted. besides, you have yourself abdicated from the position of citing imam sufyan al-thawri's opinion for tafzil as you said that it is not important anymore.

    i would have left it at that, because we don't have a problem with what imam sufyan al-thawri's 'colleagues' believed, unless they were prominent sunni imams. but i persisted only to dispel the false notion you tried to sneak in and tried to give an impression that "colleagues" in the sense "many of them" held shiyi beliefs.

    that itself shows your ignorance of hadith and ruwwat. there are many ruwwat of bukhari who are shiyi, khawarij etc. and anybody but a first-grader in hadith school will be surprised at this. merely narrating from a shiyi or heretic does not make one accepting their heresies. in fact, this is the principle we use for arab ulama who have deobandis in their hadith chains.

    take this ubaydullah ibn musa himself, who was severely criticised by some, and some others considered him thiqah; and everyone agreed that he was a shiyi. this very ubaydullah is one of the narrators of bukhari. and imam ibn hajar mentioned him in the list of "those narrators of bukhari who are criticised". and he said: "he held shiyi beliefs (that is tafzil); and he reported discredit, repudiated reports in shiyi beliefs" he also said: "imam ahmad faulted him for his fanaticism for shiyi (tafzili) ideas".

    hady al-sari, p.1127-8
    hadysari, p1127.png

    so it doesn't really matter what imam sufyan's colleagues believed in.

    about ubayd ibn abi umayyah: it is true that imam sufyan narrated from him. it is also true that his son ya'ala was a shiyi (whose opinion you posted).

    wa's salam.
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  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    But this is just awful. How can @Nawazuddin expect people to be so blind that he draws the 'quality' card without pausing to think that his repeated omissions and habitual cherry-picking give him away. always.

    Ever read a hadith about hiding knowledge?

    I know it's not a good practice to judge a book by it's cover but I guess one is allowed to judge a book by the known traits and stances of the author - particularly when he has been harping on about that one issue for more than a decade and never succeeded in proving his point.

    I guess the only people who will trust your "extensive study" are the ones who also trust weather forecasts. They are excused.
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  6. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    I will wait until you complete. Please stick to the relevant point and avoid your usual novel-nigaari. It is the quality that counts.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hope you get a crash course in examining rijaal before you release it.

    in your citations below,

    1. you have quoted ya'ala ibn ubayd mentioning his father.

    2. quoted ubaydullah ibn musa (whether you mixed them up both or whether you just cited him because it suits you is moot; which would suggest that the next anti-tafdil quote was omitted as it was not in your favour, even though it was MORE relevant than ubaydullah ibn musa's opinion)

    3. then you cited duulabi from his kunaa, and said: sufyan al-thawri

    reported from ubayd ibn abi umayyah. this you presented to show that he was imam sufyan's 'colleague'.

    thanks, though i did not need your help. because, al-kunaa is to disambiguate kunaa, not a book describing the ruwwat. for that you should look up a book such as, say, tahdhib al-tahdhib of ibn Hajar.

    we will come to the others, but first we need to get rid of ubaydullah ibn musa:

    ibn hajar in tahdhib, vol.7, p.52-53 mentions that ubaydullah ibn musa was a shiyi (meaning tafzili) and he could be worse than that, and that his hadith are rejectable.

    tahdhib, v7p52.png

    tahdhib, v7p53.png

    in sha'Allah we will examine others. i couldn't resist this.
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and a little further down - whether you looked at it or you deliberately left it out. yahya ibn mayin also insists that imam sufyan did not do tafdil.

    ibnmayin, p159b.png
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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you did not notice in the citation that you YOURSELF provided.


    my point has all along been that sufyan al-thawri did NOT do tafDil.

    but from using imam sufyan as a proof for your tafDili belief, you simply diverted it to an irrelevant issue. now you say:

    you can try this nawaz. even if they were 'colleagues', that does not prove that imam sufyan believed in tafdil. hopefully the context now
    and what does a 'colleague' mean? does it mean that 'an imam who is followed' or 'leader' or 'one who shares common belief'?
    i have colleagues who are kafir, those who are fasiq. but does that mean i share their belief?

    our point is that:

    1. ghumari cited a passage and disparaged imam sufyan al-thawri. he derided him of following the popular opinion.

    2. you came in and justified his citation and claimed that all who cite sufyan, do so citing abu nu'aym in his hilyah.

    3. i showed that there is more to it than meets the eye.

    4. and by other adducing proofs showed that imam sufyan al-thawri did not believe in tafDil.

    5. and for the sake of argument, EVEN if he did, he changed his opinion. THAT is important.

    6. you shifted the goalpost and now claim that imam sufyan's opinion is not important. his colleagues' opinion is oh-so-sacrosanct and inviolable; that whatever imam sufyan's 'colleagues' IS the right opinion.

    how so?

    and you mentioned that sufyan narrates from ubayd and ubayd narrates from sufyan. so that makes ubayd's opinion, heavier than the ijma'a of all the sunni ulama!


    i had to post this much, and i will be away today - hopefully, in sha'ALlah, will catch up by evening. (unless i get an opportunity otherwise).
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    well, if you want it like that i will agree with you. the word 'aS'Hab' is not always used as colleagues, but according to context varies. it may mean students, or others.

    i will not argue with you if you want to translate it as 'colleagues', and i will even agree with you. let us say, that they were his colleagues. (i will even update my translation if it makes you happy). but it was not sleight of hand, and i did not deliberately leave it out. now that we have fixed it, i hope we can move from that point, and examine your argument about his 'colleagues'.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  11. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran


    from al-kuna wa'l asmaa of al-dawlaabi (d. 310), just to make it easier for you. From the colleagues of sufyan al-thawri was, for example, Ubayd ibn abi umayyah about whom ibn maeen (d. 233) says, see below, that he considered Imam Ali (as) afdal to Shaykhayn (ra). here you can see that al-thawri reported from him and he reported from al-thawri.
  12. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    In this quote, it clearly states that sufyan al-thawri's earlier opinion was that of his kufi ashab/colleagues; which you translated as the opinion of kufans rather than his kufan colleagues. Would you agree? why the sleight of hand?
    The point is not the opinion of sufyan al-thawri but rather the statement that tafdil of Imam Ali (as) was the opinion of his kufan colleagues. For an extensive study of the whole issue from classical times, you will have to wait for my book. However, briefly, on the particular point under discussion, consider the following examples from marifah al-rijaal of Ibn ma'een (d. 233). I am sure, you are clever enough to consult biographical details and see they were amongst the colleagues of sufyan al-thawri such as ubayd ibn abi umayyah and his son, etc.
    ibn maeen tafdil.png
  13. Abu Hamza

    Abu Hamza Hanafi-Maturidi

    fatawa al - nawawi (sufyan al - thawri).

    Attached Files:

  14. Shihāb Dīn

    Shihāb Dīn New Member

    I don't know how abu Hasan, or anyone else on this forum for that matter, can be audacious enough to criticize the ONLY man in the whole of North Africa to call towards the Book of Allah in his time.

    Don't believe me? Ask him yourself


    Mutābaqat al Ikhtirā'āt al Asriyya limā Akhbara bihi Sayyid al Bariyyah (SallAllahu alaihi wa sallam): Ghumari, Ahmad b. Muhammad: Maktabah al Qahirah, Cairo, Egypt
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2018
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    nawaz, the list of "colleagues" please.
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as usual, yes. just remember to use the correct pronoun next time.

    please list the names of those "colleagues"

    you can support your argument with a few names. and 'sunnis', remember.

    i would also like to know, how you were able to know about other sunnis and that they held hazrat ali superior to shaykhan, from the quote mentioned by ghumari and dear to you. if you are interested we can discuss it.

    so, you should not quote imam sufyan al-thawri as YOUR proof henceforth.

    tarjamah. yes. congratulations for having discovered this.

    and don't forget:
  17. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    as usual, you are missing the point, the emphasis is on the fact the sufyan al-thawri's opinion in Kufa was the same as his "colleagues" meaning there were Sunnis who held that opinion of the afdaliyyah of Imam Ali (as) not that al-thawri changed his. However, it known that he was antagonistic towards Imam al-Azam just as Imam al-Bukhari after him. Look what Bukhari says in the tarjuma of Imam al-Azam in his Tarikh saghir:


    Indeed, I agree with doctoring of al-Ibanah and I have written on it as few years ago, that was for you to actually agree that it is doctored.
  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    la Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

    how can this man be called a scholar, let alone a muhaddith?

    I had heard that the ghumaris held unsupportable opinions but I was not prepared for something like this.

    After reading this passage I feel that G.F. Haddad was very restrained in his critique.
    Bazdawi likes this.
  19. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I wish you remove '15 minutes tafzil time' alarm from your alarm clock.
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    ok - to prove the ghumari innocent of blatant distortion and his flagrant sneer and condescension toward the great Imam - another Imam (al-ash'ari) should be attributed with naively accepting the attribution of an abomination to yet another great Imam (Imam Aa'zam) by the first (sufyan al-thawri) (raHimahullah ta'ala 'alayhim ajma'een).

    well done @Nawazuddin sahib. how many more great men will you outrage to vindicate your fetishistic love for tafzilis?
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