Pakistani men grooming girls

old habit.

 

i didn't say any imam did but their fault lies in not talking about this issue at all with v few exception i know of. imam asim is one. if more imams in all those areas it has occurred like rotherham, oxford, manchester etc. talked about it -- it would have some effect. unfortunately those muslims who carried out these atrocities belong to a demographic who, sadly, do view non-Muslim women as chattel. Talk to these 'rudebois' and you will hear comments about non-Muslim girls which are very derogatory and imply all of them are chattel only worthy of contempt.The question then arises where do they get this attitude from? From their families and where do these families get it from? From their warped understanding of Islam. So the ulema must change the warped understanding to a correct understanding. (Sadly a lot of the Muslim community silently agree with this -- you only have to hear the excuses people made for the convicted pakistani men -- 'oh the girls must have led them on' 'goriyaaN this and that'...)

they have admitted there were massive police and local authority failures but that doesn't absolve the muslim community of also clearing out these regressive attitudes towards non-Muslim women which some Muslims wrongly and sadly hold.

the rest of your post I don't have any issue with.

 

why are the brothers feeding the zindiq troll?

 

as if every muslim in the UK (or elsewhere) obeys ulama without question and deems it a sin to go against their advice or preaching. as if they make it a point to consult them for every small and big thing. but then, it is the favourite blame of liberals. "the imams and ulama are not doing enough".

yes. what do you expect them to do? which muslim scholar will condone zina (al-iyadhu billah) whether with consent or without? when muslim scholars bemoan free-mixing of sexes or promiscuity, it is unpalatable to liberals and ask them to mind their own business; because according to some, it is a private matter and individual choice.

do you suggest that muslims, and particularly imams, encourage people to treat them as chattel? this implies that muslims, imams or islam somehow treat women different than the 'enlightened' west - usual gripe of those with an inferiority complex.

yes. but which imam says that pre-marital sex is haram, and abusing young girls is halal? did you read a risalah or a sermon that implicitly or explicitly suggests or encourages men to take young girls on a date and abuse them?

the poor imam will be flayed by liberals for suggesting segregation of sexes in common gatherings!

whose definition? EDIT: you mention in a later post the context being UK law; acknowledged.

then it is collective responsibility of all UK citizens. why is it the responsibility of pakistanis or muslims? do pakistanis, mirpuris or otherwise, and muslims encourage this behaviour? did anyone deem it permissible? did they condone it in any manner?

why shouldn't lawmakers, police or other elected officials of the area take responsibility and call it their own failure?

sub'HanAllah.

 

that is another lie that is fed by the media and debauched perverts to children in school and to clueless parents whose children fall into this evil and despicable vice. A WHOLE nation was DESTROYED as a punishment for engaging in this activity.

The ahadith al-kareema al-tahira al-mubaraka are absolutely clear on this: Kill the one who did it and the one to whom it was done.

scholars have mentioned that the injunction to kill both - as opposed to the other case where the one who coerced is to be punished - is because this fundamentally depraved activity addles the minds of both irreparably and if not handled with the sword then it will spread in the land as silently and as potently as the methyl isocyanate which leaked out of the Union Carbide plant and engulfed Bhopal on the night of of 2nd December 1984, killing thousands!

we have seen all those red-herrings of sly accusations before and even tried to put sense into you. Moderators please take note.

 

Thanks brother sherkhan for your information, this could be something that we could look into for our future generation. Same sex marrige is another major problem 27 countries allow it uk being one of them. Out of the 400 hundred MP who voted for its legilslation 5 were Muslims.

The imaams who voted against it were only 500 not one sunni name did i see in the list. If anybody wants to see this i can post.

 

Already UK government is mooting the proposal to introduce sex education for primary classes (i.e. for kids ranging from 5 to 11 years). Would you believe this? What is this going to lead to? If kids turn precocious and perverts (and lose innocence at that age), then who is to blame? Years of sex education in schools hasn't made western society any better or safer. Teenage pregnancies are common occurrence (oh yes, the latest study shows that conception rate has fallen, but that doesn't mean that teenage sex has declined).

Major challenge for Muslim parents in western societies is to safeguard their kids from the twisted liberal education that is foisted upon them. Then there is all pervading media (outdoor ads, newspapers etc.) which injects "liberal" doses of immorality.

Who is blame then if Muslim youth fall prey? I would blame family, individual and then the western society in that order.

Islam has its own approach to responsible age-appropriate education when child grows into adult. Islam showed the way to tackle the issues where the medieval Church failed massively.

 

I appreciate your concerns and anguish but I don't think blaming the community is right.

Islamic teachings and values are perfect anti-dote to this and all such problems. The onus is foremost on parents to rear their children in the manner behoving of a muslim. Character building should begin at home. If the families don't send their kids to masjids, don't teach them at home, don't instill the right values, then what can the community do? Who's the community by the way: friends, neighbours, school, local masjid? I don't know of any Muslim community in UK that is depraved as a whole (few in every community will be black sheep). I don't think any Muslim community (unless thoroughly secularised or "modernised") actively corrupts the morals of individuals.

Unfortunately in the free UK society, ulemas/community can't ostracise and boycott such families. They can't intervene to bring the children of errant parents to fold. It is Kafkaesque scenario in UK, the state can intervene to snatch the child from parents (and put the child in care home) if the parents use punishment to discipline the child; but the state won't intervene the child falls in bad company, starts drinking and taking drugs.

Problem is the general ills of British society (I am not saying that everything about the society is bad) which acts to corrupt and then destroy the human being. What do Muslim youth need to respect non-Muslims for? What good is missing in Islam that we need to look elsewhere to discover and reform ourselves? (again not saying that every Muslim is better than non-Muslim) We need to look inward, but Asif wants us to look outward.

-------

I knew Asif would pull the consenting adult card.

 

brother Sherkhan has presented the true concept of Islam on this. Did you read his post? re-read it again plz

 

Brother spiderman, well said. In my view, the way to stop such criminal abuse (grooming etc.) in the future is to teach future Muslim youth to respect non-Muslims by means of shared values which will all share as human beings...

 

I have once again proven my self wrong. I honestly came on here to find solutions and get other peoples views and as a jamaat of sunni Muslims we could in a unified way present the true concept of Islam, regarding these issues. But as usual we have the same people who post on other threads disagreeing on everything.

The attitude for sure would be different if these girls were our own or ASIANS PAKISTANI.

 

Whichever way you cut it there is NO excuse for the behaviour of these people who have given all Muslims and especially Muslim Pakistanis a bad name whether we like it or not.

Sunnis are meant to be the moderate mainstream and open and kind hearted and gentle but a few people on here - not all -- sound more like Anjum Chowdhury in their extremist views!

 

...but under 16s are minors under UK law...and since that is the jurisdiction we operate under...


--

 

Definitely paedos are worse than homos as it affects not only 1 person but the entire family/community. Moreover the effect on the child will not be erased even throughout the life of the victim. May such people rot in jahannam forever!

The point that I made was specific to the cases mentioned in this thread which are for for those under 16 (in some cases up to 18) baligh victims (in which case it is not pedophilia). They are definitely not minors islamically as Asif is implying! Moreover if you read the reports some of these victims used to even leave their care homes and go to these sick rapists and get drunk and drugged! This is the exact point that I was making.

edited:noori-personal attack removed

 

Brother fear Allah i never said any of those things which you ascribe to me about 'they should be allowed'. i am merely stating what is the law in the UK. Islam teaches us to respect the law of the land one lives in. It doesn't mean one condones all such laws. The point I was making was a simple one: homosexuality and pedophilia are sins in Islam but the latter is worse because a young person is being taken advantage of even if consensual and harmed whereas in the former -- which i am NOT agreeing with -- there is no harm being done to anyone if it is consensual.
Please be fair and not twist my words.

--
The fact is whether it is fair to target a whole community due to the actions of a few -- and it is obviously not -- Pakistani Muslims are being targeted and so the community has to speak out and say these people are not representative instead of hiding behind excuses.

Muslims might not like the laws of the land they live in but they have to obey them so saying things like 'stupid 16 year old law has nothing to do with Islam' might be true from a Shariah perspective but exactly this kind of attitude is what makes non-Muslims thing 'Muslims want to be judged by a different set of standards to the rest of us' and doesn't help the Muslims.

 

I would say both Homos and Peados are twisted but I consider Paedos as worse (Especially those who do unspeakable things to children) as I put myself in the parents position and imagine the pain that they must go through is unimaginable.

It's funny that the satanic paedo group whose members include Saville and C.Smith haven't had their religions mentioned. Why is it that when a group of Jahil Muslims do wrong things, its Islam thats mentioned and somehow twisted to make it seem its Islam that made them do it.

Anyways, according to Asif, if a person wants to be gay or go nightclubs or drink then they shouldn't be stopped but they should be left to it. If an under 16 girl and an older man want to have sex then they too should be allowed, according to Asif as the stupid '16 years old rule' has nothing to do with Islam. As long as the girls were Baligh and willing, there's no difference between the two.

 

Brother sherkahn if these issues appear that you have mentioned then insha Allah we Muslims will have to deal with them. But as for now this is a big problem a major problem. What do we say to the kuffar when they question us that AHH this is mirpuris who are doing this. If you could give a solution then i will be grate full im not here to criticize anyone.

 

both homosexuals and paedophiles are sick in their minds and to say that one is somehow less abhorrent than the other is also a sign of sickness albeit of a different kind.

old habits die hard.

I suggest brothers leave asif to himself and have patience. Use the 'report' feature if you will. If he is not careful he might soon have to choose a new username.

 

75 percent of these sick sex driven perverts were immigrants from Pakistan. When we post please post after getting the facts right.

sherkhan what are you blabbering on about. I have merely presented the facts

 

A girl who has reached the age of balooghat is no longer a minor in Islam and has the ability to consent. Moreover she is responsible for her own actions such as relationships with men, drugs, alcohol, and all other evils going around. The strange thing in western culture is that two under 16 drunk baaligh people committing zina is not an issue. At this time it is considered that both are immature and so it is not as bad as these people will eventually grow up! When the same happens with say one of the party being over the age of 18 then it becomes a fact that only the elder one is guilty! (P.S. I am not in any way condoning the actions committed by these sick Pakistani/Mirpuri men).

Coming back to your apparent "soft-heartedness" towards "gays" then this is indeed a worse crime than the one being mentioned in this thread. We all are fully aware of the Islamic ruling on such people. Fortunately the rules of shariat are laid down firmly and we don't have to follow any absurd reasoning (or lack of) from someone who hasn't learned much over all these years!

Shariat is above any human law. End of...