i like your albani-like 'authentically'. why is it more authentic, is a moot point. not that you bother to explain because, you have been exposed thoroughly as a faux academic.* you just assume the mannerisms without substance. fine, it is my opinion but i think many will agree with you. [for someone who is supposed to be a phd candidate (feel free to refute) your referencing is ridiculous. please reference your quotes BUT with page number or hadith number; not a cut and paste from online source or an http link.] anyway, i am still saying: these are not mutually exclusive. and please refer to the discussion before, hazrat ammar ibn yasir is not you or your father. he, as a SaHabi greater than hazrat mu'awiyah can say that - you should keep your mouth shut. Allah Allah fee aS'Habi --- *here, i don't mean academic as in a hadith scholar. i have heard that you are at oxford and it is that 'academia' that i mean. btw, i am neither an engineering graduate nor a phD candidate.