Professor Francis Robinson regarding Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (R. A)

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Unbeknown, Jan 31, 2021.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I haven't had the time (nor have the patience) to sit through all these "objective" whitewashing of the brand "Deoband".

    But I happened to chance on this old post from 2010 which quotes one of the precursors to this subtle deobandi agitprop (also read).

    So Alahazrat is just "Khan" but the impudent Ismail isn't "Dihlavi" or "Shah" but the honorable "Shaheed".

    Speaks volumes.
  2. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    One more book review discussion. I don't know who the moderator is.

  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In his papers/articles meant for Muslim audience, he apparently does use pb-uh salutation (or the samaa TV probably inserted it on his behalf). A sample here.

    It appears to me that the author tries to re-frame the deobandi-Barelwi polemics and differences as some sterile rivalry, such that the deoband school's heresy are quietly buried away. Either, it is an attempt to couch the "wash" in an intellectual (high-falutin), "academic" manner (where everything else but the crux of the matter is addressed) or it is a genuine misunderstanding of the divide/problem (i.e. the nature of differences). To be fair, the author tries his best to be even-handed and doesn't try mis-representing the Barelwi stance or practices.

    It appears that SherAli's academic interest centers around deoband theology, so the book on deoband-Bareilly divide was a natural segue for some fertile academic endeavour. More of Tareen's papers (including translation of faysla haft etc.) can be accessed (after free registration) from Academia.

    Another plug for his book here.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    oh it's standard fare.

    "Academia" is besotted with far-flung conspiratorial narratives packaged as "fresh outlook", "compelling new research" and etc.

    I looked him up based on a mere hunch and sure enough here's him adoring his fellow nigger.

    "competing political theologies" - yeah - more like "competing at a boot licking carnival"
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    is the author a murtadd?

    then why does he not utter the salawat with the name of RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam? the audience won't like it?
    i look down upon him as a house-nigger. no respect for those who are embarrassed to own up to their identity.

    he will have no barakah in that book.
    Unbeknown and Ghulaam like this.
  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I forgot to add that this 500+ page book is a detailed study of Barelwi-Deobandi polemics, far more comprehensive than prior works. Despite the professed lack of bias, by not critically examining the deobandi heresy, author inadvertently (or intentionally) gives legitimacy to that school's deviance from mainstream.
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    he is a descendant of that long line of Orientalists that have - for centuries - played with the history of the ruled for the benefit of the rulers.

    They treat all their (former) slaves as no better than a colony of ants or worse - as such, their histories are fair game for all foul ends.

    Lying and fabricating at will to pitch one group against the other, or to detach a people from their glorious past - are all well worn techniques of mass mental subjugation.

    This guy is no different - they know well, that if they censure one group, the other will carry them over its shoulders and shower them with titles of "authority" that they love to hear from their audience - no matter how fictitious those titles be.

    Sunnis should beware similar charlatans who will pander to their pet beliefs by, for example, cussing wahabis or shi'a.
    CHISHTI likes this.
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well I find this hard to believe - I have never encountered such a dearth - except maybe in certain parts of Mumbai.
    It is true however that a lot of qadeem mosques have been taken over.

    the reasons for devaband infestation are many and diverse - and I think it is in keeping with everything else that is going about.

    The world is crumbling all over - not one wing at a time. And dajjal won't appear suddenly into an unwilling public - one that will rise up against him. The world will be primed for his arrival, almost dying for him to come and "rescue" them.

    So, from wahhabism to devbandism to rafidis to etc. etc. - it's all one long slow march down the highway that leads to the threshold of dajjal - chanting hyms and carrying bright torches, to the beat of drums (reminiscent of some ancient pagan ritual), the world is streaming enmasse, to that dreadful and inevitable end, from where it will pitch itself, lemming-like, into the open jaws of the one-eyed monster.

    It's merely the ticking of the clock ...
    Ghulam Ali and CHISHTI like this.
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Latest in this list of "research" work is Sher Ali Tareen's book "Defending Muhammad in Modernity".

    His keynote address on the book can be found here:

    Author's leaning and research area centres around deobandi school, as apparent here.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    could be.

    but his using this to frame the sunni activity in that period is patently false.
  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Is Prof Robinson just regurgitating the oft-repeated "fact" such as "deoband appealing to the urban elite and barelwis belonging to rural or the countryside"? While he is wrong about the initial origins (as you have pointed out), to an extent, Prof's statement now rings true in terms of current reality.

    Deobandi infiltration into sunni masjids started in cities, and as yet village mosques are yet to dominated by deobandis. It's hard to find a sunni/Barelwi mosque in Indian cities these days. Tablighis are still concentrated in urban areas (except in Haryana, where they have run over Mewat district). Until a decade back, tablighis were virtually unknown around the villages where I belong to.

    In purani Delhi (erstwhile Shahjahanabad, which still has a population of over 300,000 Muslims), you will be hard placed to locate a sunni masjid, even though there is an old, dilapidated masjid in every nook and corner. I've been informed by local sunnis during my annual visits to Urdu market that the nearest sunni masjid is Fatehpuri Shahi masjid (which is at least 3 km away!). I'm sure a century or two ago, each of these masajids were a sunni one. Same is the case in Okhla and other Muslim dominated areas.

    A sprawling metropolitan city like Mumbai is near-completely dominated by ahl-e-hadith, deobandi etc. mosques (even though I suspect that Mumbai is still better than Delhi in sunni masjid count). I once asked a sunni masjid chairperson in Mumbai to draw me a list of sunni masajids where I could pop in for namaz if I was out and about in the city. He told me that there were so "few and far between" that he would be hard-pressed to come up with a list. It's the same story in every major city and town; the space has now been lost to deviants.

    It may not be true 100 years back, but as of now deobandis do live in cities and barelwis in ...


    An aside. I've suddenly become nostalgic and beginning to miss an old-timer on this forum, Wadood, who was always ready with unverified demographical/social stats (like the ones I refer above!). Any news of him?
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    for those who ain't got time:

    apparently, robinson is a scholar who specialises on islam in south asia. he might be good at what he does, i won't deny him that - but his estimation of alahazrat is lazy and uninformed.

    for a political history of the khilafat movement 1919-24

    from the horse's mouth. azad's loyalty to nehru withheld this book for decades. Wins Freedom - Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.pdf
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who is this guy?

    like keller, metcalf, sanyal, karen armstrong and other 'experts' on the subcontinental strife his history is all mixed up or they are lazy to look it up. but will fill the gaps with their imaginations.

    alahazrat did not support the khilafat movement because of sound reasons. hearsay, rumours and opinions aside - read his own fatawa on WHY.
    two major issues with the khilafat movement alahazrat refuted were:

    a) hindu-muslim unity
    b) mass migration of people

    alahazrat refuted the first one for its incompatibility with islam and the second for its impractical approach.

    a corollary of the first point was tark-e-mawalat. alahazrat found it absurd that tark-e-mawalat was being done with christians and not the mushrik hindus!

    alahazrat was not against 'helping muslim nations' but viewed it as an excuse by hindus to obtain support of muslims for their own agenda. which was proven later and can be understood by nehru's writings.

    no one has ever heard of alahazrat holding his own "pro-british" conference. robinson is lying through his teeth.

    besides, this was near the end of his life; so citing this for his 'pro-british' stance is just deobandi slander packaged as history. and the movement eventually fizzled away and was a big failure.

    his other comment about deoband appealing to the urban elite and barelwis belonging to rural or the countryside is also fantasy - perhaps even thought up at the spur of the moment.

    robinson could look up the map or even read dalrymple to get an idea of indian geography. even though i read a lot of histories - indian history has been a particularly area of interest for me; and as an indian i can better visualise and even make contextual corrections for the nuances that outsiders will miss.

    you can look up gazettes and histories. deoband and saharanpur WERE small towns when bareilly, lucknow, rampur, delhi, moradabad, lahore were thriving cities and urban centres. the leaders among sunni ulama came from prominent cities and had huge following in economic hubs like karachi and bombay.

    but then...who will check? "professor" robinson said it, so in some years will become a profound truth, cited by phD scholars.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  14. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Hazrat Shaykh Abdul Hakim Sharaf Qadri رحمة الله تعلى عليه sent his book to Dr Robinson without any response
  15. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Well-Known Member

    ملک سخن کی شاہی تم کو رضا مسلم
    جس سمت آگئے ہو سکے بٹھا دیئے ہے
  16. Danish Memon

    Danish Memon New Member

    Please check this guys!

    Looks like this channel is operated by those dirty Devbandies! but still wanted to let u know in case u guys missed it!

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