Qadr: Qadarīyyah beliefs among the masses

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Ahlesaabiqoon, Apr 27, 2022.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it was your nitpicking, not mine.

    and since you don't understand simple things, here is the clarification:

    if someone quotes tahawiyyah - and draws erroneous conclusions, it is only prudent to ask them whether they have read any of the commentaries. because commentaries explain the text - even your scholars local and 'regional' (btw they are synonyms. like 'me and myself') will have to defer to maydani or babarti.

    ---
    anyone who disagrees with what i have written (mainly translated from shuruh of jawharah) simply doesn't understand the issue. they need to still learn. and anyone who concurs with your understanding will be refuted.

    just words. tell us what are your primary sources and secondary and tertiary. just vague talk only proves that your claims are just vacuous.

    no one disputed this.

    don't know what you mean by this. using the will does not mean that ALlah ta'ala compels you to choose according to His own Will.

    this is the madh'hab of jabariyyah. and you simply don't understand the nuance.

    aameen.
     
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  2. AbdulMalik027

    AbdulMalik027 New Member

    Ill listen to my scholars on this issue. they are local and/or regional. you wouldnt know them anyway. but scholars from a variety of backgrounds concur; I have spoken with them directly. the issue isnt about being nit picky about tertiary sources. its just about how clear the issue is even from primary sources. Allaah creates our acts. using the will falls within such. so it isnt just a matter of foreknowledge, its a matter of predetermination as well. Allaah guide us to the truth. Aameen. khair. You can delete all of my comments. you can delete the whole thread as a matter of fact. you can delete my 'alias' as well.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @AbdulMalik027

    it is clear that one who says "jazakullah" is an absolute beginner, if not an outright jahil and it is wajib on him to sit with ulama and perfect his farayid and wajibat. one should know one's limits and stay there.

    those still in primary school should not delude themselves that they can issue judgements in on complex issues beyond their ken.

    names?

    so you are a muqallid of ahl-S? and this is a new madh'hab which has "tahawee source" next to qur'an and hadith.

    ignoramuses who do not know the difference between explanation of a text and tertiary source should first find a competent aalim and read tahawiyah with them lest they commit bigger blunders.

    so what does your confident reporting from the 35-60ish scholars make? primary and secondary sources?

    إِذا كُنتَ لا تَدري وَلَم تَكُ كَالَّذي * يُشاوِرُ مَن يَدري فَكَيفَ إِذن تَدري
    جَهِلتَ فَلَم تَدرِ بِأَنَّكَ جاهِلٌ * وَأَنَّكَ لا تَدري بِأَنَّكَ لا تَدري
    وَمِن أَعظَمِ البَلوى بِأَنَّكَ جاهِلٌ * فَمَن لي بِأَن تَدري بِأَنَّكِ لا تَدري
    رُبَّ امرِئٍ يَجري وَيَدري بَأَنَّهُ * إِذا كانَ لا يَدري جَهولٌ بِما يَجري


    ----
    you didn't say what?
    ----
    for your own good and to protect your imaan - keep out of this discussion.

    do not make idiotic statements and try to rationalise your own posts under another name. first learn the basic decency to not deceive - the same person posting as two different people, and one supporting/liking the other - is a form of deception.

    anymore posts on this issue under either of your aliases will be deleted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  4. AbdulMalik027

    AbdulMalik027 New Member

    Maturidee, Ash'aree. 35-60ish in age.
    They concurred with him that our willing is willed by Allaah.

    ahlesaabiqoon gave you proof from the Qur'aan, Hadeeths, and Tahawee source. You went on to demand tertiary sources.

    Ahlesaabiqoon doesnt say Allaah is compelling us to make a choice. He's saying the human will, when it is intent on an action, was in fact decreed by Allaah aforetime. There is no difference in using the word decide decree will choose.

    Ahlesaabiqoon is saying a person chooses a over b, but with his own will.
    This person choosing a over b is either created by Allaah or by the individual. If you say the latter, you fall into mutazilism/qadareeya belief. if you say the former, it is wrong to say Allaah created this but didnt decide this.

    as for sadr sharia, i shared the reference: look up the link. I didnt say maturidees say Allaah doesnt create human choice. I said supposed maturidees. I didnt say this is the actual position of the school.

    when you said there is a difference between creation of a will and exercising that will, when a person exercises his will, this exercising cannot happen until Allaah creates it. again: This person choosing a over b is either created by Allaah or by the individual. If you say the latter, you fall into mutazilism/qadareeya belief. if you say the former, it is wrong to say Allaah created this but didnt decide this.
     
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    "senior" scholar of which age? and which inclination?

    ahle-S has said so many things - some valid some invalid. which point of ahle-S did 'senior scholars' concur with?
    even if they did, i want to see evidence from earlier ulama say 100 years ago. imam bajuri and prior to him would be fine.

    you are creating an impression that ahle-S holds a position that has some basis - i want to see evidence.

    ---
    what does it mean? you take it at face value? give us an exposition from a few commentaries: babarti, maydani, or even sh. foudeh.

    this is a loaded question.

    we can say: we can exercise a will (created by Allah in us) to make a choice; and Allah does not compel us to make a choice.

    ahleS says:
    according to him: Allah 'decided' 'willed' that this person should choose A over B. and yet he claims that zayd can exercise his choice!

    now, you may point out that he did not use the word 'should' and he actually said: "Allāh willed this person would will to choose A over B". any sane person can see that it is the same thing - and instead of 'should' he has used "would will to choose" - the implication comes from the previous "Allah Willed.."
     
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  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    which? where? reference?

    who says this? maturidis? reference?

    here you imply that maturidis do not say that Allah ta'ala CREATES our choice or will; what is the evidence? [there is a difference between CREATION of that will and EXERCISING that will].

    ---
     
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  7. AbdulMalik027

    AbdulMalik027 New Member

    sheikh abu hasan,
    gotta ask something.

    ahlesaabiqoon bro said Allaah willed what we wills. He used this quote from tahaawee: مَشِيئَةَ لِلْعِبَادِ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ فَمَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ كَانَ وَمَا لَمْ يَشَأْ لَمْ يَكُنْ
    The slaves' will are not but what Allaah willed.
    Can we say we can will to make a choice without Allaah's Will. If no, where is ahlesaabiqoon wrong?

    YeaH we should not talk about qadar too much. seen differences in scholars explaining it. I have heard many seniors scholars saying same as what ahlesaabiqoon saying but i heard scholars say different things also, and I even saw some supposed maatureedees say human choice is not created. review this link inshaa'allaah and comment ur thoughts on it??
    http://www.occasionalism.org/an-occ...he-universe-islamic-and-cartesian-approaches/
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you are wrong on multiple counts. taking qur'anic verses literally and expounding aqidah without having read the shuruh is foolishness. your tone suggests that you are a sincere seeker, and harsh as i may sound - this is not a topic that you should discuss.

    if your dream were indeed correct, then all the ashari imams and maturidi imams were in the wrong. from ghazali to razi to sanusi and nasafi to ibn humam to nablusi, all of them made a grave error - and you were divinely guided, in spite of your incoherent argument and ignorance of the meanings of the verses you quote!

    inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.

    ---
    for example:
    I am not denying zayd has a will of his own...but, he still cannot will unless Allāh willed.

    ---
    the root of your confusion is lack of depth and ignorance of tafsir and shuruh. i am sorry if i sound harsh, a person who has only read a few translations should not dare to expound on one of the most delicate, complex and dangerous issue in kalam.

    the same imam tahawi said:

    thwi.png

    ====
    the aayats and hadith you have cited in your post - did you even consider looking up a tafsir? we will examine them shortly, wa billahi't tawfiq.

    sub'HanAllah.
     
  9. AbdulMalik027

    AbdulMalik027 New Member

    I saw some maatureedees say: Sadr-us Sharia and later Ibn Humam offer an ingenious solution to this problem by denying that human choice falls under the scope of divine power. In their view, human choice is a relational and relative matter that appears between the inclination and the action. For instance, assume that I have a desire to drink water. I choose to drink it and then take a glass of water and perform the action. My choice is a relational matter between my desire to drink water and the act of drinking it. Relations are not things that have definite existence. Spatial orientation is an example of this. My pen is on the right side of my tea cup from a certain perspective, but on the left side from another. Even though my pen and my tea cup have definite existence, the relations of rightness and leftness which appear between them do not. Relations are relative matters, and because of that they are not genuine objects to which divine power is applicable. In other words, human choice as a relational matter is not under the scope of any kind of power. As a result, it would be a category mistake to say that human choice is caused or created.
    and they say if God creates human choices, then human beings cannot be held responsible for their choices simply because they are not their own choices.
    http://www.occasionalism.org/an-occ...he-universe-islamic-and-cartesian-approaches/

    but ahlesaabiqoon follows ash'arees who say God creates our choices. I saw that sunni wordpress website say the same. ash'arees say God creates choices, we make them in the sense of committing. God creates our acts, we commit them. (kasb)
     
  10. AbdulMalik027

    AbdulMalik027 New Member

    YEa, I heard this too.
     
  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    the summary of your long and repetitive posts is that;

    - Allah Ta'ala willed that Zaid can have a free-will
    - AllahTa'ala willed that Zaid would have choices in his actions to choose from
    - Allah Ta'ala willed that Zaid will choose action A over other actions
    - Allah Ta'ala created the will of choosing A in Zaid
    - Allah Ta'ala created the action A in Zaid

    where did Zaid make the choice? what else is jabr?
     
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  12. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    Mawlānā, if you feel I have erred, correct me. I will listen to what you have to say and will not continue to dispute here. I am not arrogant. Salām.

    And I hope to learn more from the brothers here concerning the various topics of deen.

    also mawlānā, I asked you a question on DM. please answer when you have the time, inshā'Allāh.
     
  13. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    Here are some screenshots from shaykh abu adam. by the way, I dont just do taqlid of him.
    This is something that I've heard from my local 'ulamā as well, from deobandis, barelwis, pseudo-salafis, etc...
    They insist that indeed, our wills are willed by Allāh.

    There was one person I knew who recently became a student a year or two ago, but he goes to a deobandi institute. We were walking one night until we happened to talk about qadr. Until I mentioned the word, decide, and he disliked that because he was saying this is no free-will. So we left after some time. That same night, I had a dream that I was in the masjid showing him proof and correcting him that indeed, everything that happens is with Allāh's decision. I tried to to relay this dream to him, but the next time I saw him, he came to me and before I could tell him about the dream, he said his 'ulamā told him that Allāh does decide but this does not negate free-will on our part. and so he agreed with me and we stopped discussing it. of course, this is a dream, and dreams of regular people like us are not some proof like the dreams of Prophets (alayhimus Salaam), but if it was a true dream from Allāh, and it surely felt like it, this is another reason, in addition to what I have learned from texts and rational proofs, why I believe what I believe.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  14. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    Dear Mawlānā,

    Imām tahāwī (rahmatullah alayh) said it. Allāh wills the wills of the servants. This is in aqeedah tahawiyyah.

    Also, it's in the Qur'ān. (Qur'ān 81:29)

    "You do not will unless Allāh, Lord of the worlds, wills."
    So if a person willed to choose A over B, prior to this, Allāh willed this person would will to choose A over B.
    You do not will to choose A over B, unless Allāh, Lord of the worlds, wills.

    and it's basic reason that nothing happens unless Allāh wills.

    1. If Zayd willed to choose shirk over īmān, this was indeed willed by Allāh.

    "But if Allāh had willed, they would not have associated (done shirk). And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, nor are you a manager over them." Qur'ān 6:107.

    And it is impossible that Zayd will do something that Allāh hasn't willed for him (and hadīth clearly say one must believe in qadr such that one knows that what struck could not have missed).

    1) It is impossible for a person to do what Allāh has not willed.
    2) If a person willed to do shirk, Allāh willed that this person would will to do shirk.
    3) It is impossible for Zayd to not do shirk.

    And the Qur'ān clearly says He guides whom He wills and misguides whom He wills.

    Now if a person states, well if its impossible for zayd to not do shirk, he is being forced. By this same logic, if a person only stated Allāh foreknew everything that would happen for certainty, it is still impossible that zayd not do shirk since Allāh knew, for certainty, that will happen, and Allāh's knowledge is perfect, so merely saying its impossible is not the same as saying he's forced. He's not forced since he has a will of his own. When Zayd does shirk with his own will, he is not being forced since to be forced is to do what's against one's will. Zayd doing shirk is not against his will. it is his will. but this will was willed by Allāh.

    2. the only way zayd could have been guided was if Allāh willed for him to choose iman over shirk. (this is the only sense where its possible for zayd to choose iman over shirk, since Allāh could have willed guidance for him. however, once one realizes that Allāh did not will that for Him and knew He would never be guided, its impossible in this sense).

    3. Zayd is held accountable because he wasn't forced to do sin against his will. [Actually, on this point, well I think you all realize by now I'm an ash'arī, if people never disobeyed Allāh, and had Allāh punished them from the get go in hellfire for eternity, I still believe this is justice. Im an adherent of DCT (divine command theory). of course Allaāh would never do this and its impossible He tell a lie.]

    4. choice is to choose something with one's own will. I am not denying zayd has a will of his own. It is his will. He feels it, he acts on it, etc... he's not a robot. he's not like a leaf blown in the wind without any choice/will of its own. but, he still cannot will unless Allāh willed.

    So if a mushrik says, well Allāh willed that I would commit shirk, the mushrik cannot analogize this and say this is the same as saying Allāh is forcing me to do shirk. They are not forced since they do have a will, but what they will cannot be unless Allāh willed.

    Those who associated with Allah will say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have associated [anything] and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying." Qur'ān 6:148.

    This āyāh not denying that the shirk mushriks do is willed by Allāh. (see Qur'ān 81:29, whatever we will cannot be unless Allāh wills it).

    In fact, the very next āyāh emphasizes that indeed, Allāh could have willed the mushriks do otherwise.

    Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all." Qur'ān 6:149.

    That is, Allāh is the King and Owner of everything. He wills guidance for some, misguidance for others. He does as He wills. He cannot be held accountable for what He does. so who cares what these silly mushriks think; they don't deserve anything. Iman is grace from Allāh.
     
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    anaam v148.png
    the polytheists say: if Allah so willed, we would not commit polytheism (shirk) nor would our forefathers.

    ----
    imam razi explains the claim of polytheists thus:

    tfkabir,v13p237a.png


    know that when Allah ta'ala cited the [claim] of the pagans [ahl al-jahiliyyah] and their stand on a ruling [hukm] in the religion of Allah without any proof or evidence, Allah also mentioned the excuses they proferred for their committing of disbelief:

    so they say:

    - if Allah Willed for us that we should not commit kufr/disbelief, we would have abstained from such a disbelief.

    - and because He (Allah) has not prevented us from it [committing kufr], it proves that he Wills [murid/iradah] that [we commit kufr].

    - and when Allah Wills it [i.e. for us to commit kufr] - it is impossible for us to forsake it.

    - therefore, we must be excused in this regard [of committing kufr]​

    ====
    how would you ( @Ahlesaabiqoon ) answer?
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what do you mean by "jabrīyyah say all actions we commit are involuntary"? also please insert the arabic word that you have translated as 'involuntary'.

    ---
    what is the distinction?

    and why are we responsible only for the former?

    this point is not disputed. we believe that Allah taala is the Creator of every action.
     
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i was writing something but you made it easier with the latest post.

    which imam has said this? can you cite any sharh to this effect? or is it your own conclusion?

    --
    let us say A is kufr/shirk and B is iyman; and let us assume zayd chooses kufr/shirk.

    your above statement becomes:

    Allāh willed our wills, including our will to choose kufr/shirk over iyman.

    the following points arise:

    1. If Allah ta'ala willed zayd to choose kufr over iyman, it is impossible for zayd to choose iyman.

    2. The above can be restated as: If Allah ta'ala willed zayd to choose kufr over iyman, HOW can zayd choose iyman?

    3. If it is impossible for zayd to choose iyman, why would he be held accountable for 'choosing' kufr?

    4. If Allah ta'ala already willed for zayd - where is this 'choice', unless by 'choice' you mean 'doing what is willed by a Higher Power'?

    ===
    let us not forget your statement:

    i.e., The will of zayd is only what He (Allah) wills for zayd.

    in other words, zayd cannot have a will of his own. zayd does not have a choice because if Allah Willed kufr for zayd, zayd cannot oppose it.
    and when zayd has no choice, why is he then commanded to choose iyman? and is punished for doing something which was already willed for him and which he could not escape.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
     
  18. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ يَجْرِي بِتَقْدِيرِهِ وَمَشِيئَتِهِ وَمَشِيئَتُهُ تَنْفُذُ لَا مَشِيئَةَ لِلْعِبَادِ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ فَمَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ كَانَ وَمَا لَمْ يَشَأْ لَمْ يَكُنْ

    From Aqeedah tahawiyyah,
    مَشِيئَةَ لِلْعِبَادِ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ فَمَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ كَانَ وَمَا لَمْ يَشَأْ لَمْ يَكُنْ

    The will of the servants is only what He wills for them.

    Allāh willed our wills, including our will to choose a over b.
     
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  19. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    Allāh existed, and there was no one else.
    He knew zayd would do an action at time (t).
    Think, zayd didnt exist when Allāh alone existed. zayd didnt decide his actions when Allāh alone existed.
    Allāh knew zayd would decide to do an act at time (t).
    but this act could not have happened unless Allāh decided/willed it will happen. Creating the act is a clear proof that Allāh decided/willed it pre-eternally.

    Its not just Allāh knew what zayd was going to do.
    Its more like, Allāh knew what He was going to create zayd to do.
     
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  20. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon New Member

    1. I can read arabic, not perfectly.
    2. Yes.
    3. I have read books that speak about qadr in Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar, aqeedah tahawiyyah, and kalaam book like Al Ash'arīs luma, Maturidis kitab at-tawheed, etc... I'm only a student of knowledge and have a lot to go, but this is something my shuyukh say, that to Allāh belongs the decision, and this is what reason entails.
    4. The statements that I posted were not my translations. Their conclusions are accurate.

    5. Inevitable/certain: yaqeen
    Will: irādah. to will/decide: sha
    choice: ikhtiyar

    I have not contradicted myself.

    Allāh willed that zaid will commit action A is the same as saying Allāh decided that Zaid will commit action A.

    By the way, plenty of Muslims have denied that Allāh creates their actions. Many of them have this mu'tazilī belief that we create our own actions. I know some of these people.

    If Allāh willed/decided I will commit action a, this is not jabr if He willed/decided I would commit action a voluntarily (with my own intention).

    I have not conflated decide with create. (Allāh has pre-eternally willed/decided what will be, but the creation ongoing proceeds and runs according to Allāh's Will). Nevertheless, any rational person will realize that if my action is created by the Creator, it is obvious that the Creator willed/decided I would commit such an action.

    Again, as for Zayd, when He sees A or B, and he chooses A instead of b, he is actually choosing a over b. he intentionally chose a over b (this is precisely free-will)
    but This act of choosing is created by Allāh. which you say you dont deny this. but think. If my act of choosing on (typo * one) thing over another is created by Allāh, it is in fact Allāh deciding I would chose one thing over the other.

    This is all synonymous:
    Allāh chose that I would choose a over b freely.
    Allāh willed that I would will to choose a over b freely.
    Allāh decided that I would decide to choose a over b freely.

    the free will here is my intention.

    It cannot be said that zaid is forced since forced, by definition, is to do something against one's will. Zaid's will for his voluntary action is compatible with the Divine Will.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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