Retaining the Dars-e-Nizami as-is / and the Khairabadi Tradition

i browsed this book today, and read the last part on "dars nizami". this book was written in 1973.

https://archive.org/details/bani-dars-e-nizami_202102/page/n1/mode/2up


some views of the author coincide with mine.







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furhter in the same book:

 

i've had personal experience with this. one of the top Sunni muftis of karachi (a very humble and Allah-fearing person) once told me to continue sending him summarized Urdu voice clips regarding things like the study Quran, mark hanson, bin bayyah, jifry etc. so he could forward them onwards. as he rightly said, their sphere of influence and knowledge is limited to the mischief of the sold out pakistani politicians and the attacks on Islam from pak's own internal fitnahs - in urdu; and that's about it.

the kind of students of knowledge and ulama you talk about are neither stupid nor lacking in any piety, fear of Allah or zeal to do things for religion.

they've just been let down by bad leadership from both sold out politicians as well as people of deen who cannot support change in the ecosystem of people of deen (learning and pedagogy is one aspect of it, among others) because their own maulvigiri and peeri shops will shut down miserably, or in the absolute best case husn az-zann scenario, by people who are averse to change for whatever reason, Allah knows best.

that too is limited to ms excel and word processing and stuff of this sort

compare that to the IT cells of the bjp and the yahood, where they have teams of people dedicated just to edit wikipedia entries in multiple languages, inducing bot farms on social media, AI applications geared against Islam and Muslims and so on - all to spread false and negative propaganda, instill doubts very subtly as well as not so subtly on religious topics itself, preach democracy and liberalism in subtle and unsubtle ways, and so on .... they (our guys) are still in the age of carbon paper!

i've seen sanatani animals on X point to Fiqh Al-Akbar and make jahil shirk inferences and graphics on it when Muslims try to chastise them for worshiping statues of ugly whores like kali. al-3eyadhu billah, to a teenager who didn't study proper aqidah, we seek Allah's refuge for him/her falling into their subterfuge! la3anahumullah.

 

we have discussed this earlier here in some old posts.

https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/who-is-an-aammi-a-historical-context.14160/#post-66428
see post 4: https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/becoming-an-alim-by-self-study.6845/#post-20028
https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/teach-these-in-madrasas.14992/#post-73638

because we live in a different world. every aspect of our lives have been transformed and are forced to adhere to principles and philosophies imposed upon us and we have no control. without learning about the world, we will not be able to fight these new age philosophies. forget about converting kuffar, it will become difficult to keep muslims as muslims. al iyadhu billah.

even that is mostly partial, and only that which has come via muslim philosophers such as kindi, farabi, ibn sina and those who followed such as ibn rushd.

 

A potential solution is to establish institutions offering 2-years "Training for the Modern world" courses Post Darse nizami rather than attempting to immediately alter the deeply entrenched traditional Darse Nizami system.

 

During my time in Pakistan, I observed that the most capable students immerse themselves in highly detailed mabaahith of Nahw, Mantiq, Balaghah, etc., yet they are unable to address even the most basic objections raised by liberals/atheists etc

Most of them don’t even know the map of the world. If only their time was spent on learning English, understanding basic geopolitics, and recognizing logical fallacies etc, it would be far more beneficial.

They know all about the ikhtilaafat of the Falaasifah and the Hukamah but remain ignorant of ideologies actually shaping our world like Materialism, capitalism, communism, hedonism etc

Even the most senior students ask inane questions like
"Hum professionals kaise ban sakte Hain?"
"Kya aap humein general knowledge sikha sakte Hain?"
& The most effort they exert in this regard is enrolling in a graphics design, "skill enhancement" or "computer IT" course.

These are certainly not unintelligent individuals; the issue lies in the framework they are confined to. It fails them as the guiding structure it was meant to be.

 

i found this rather ironic. isn't the wahabi manhaj to shut your mind off to all developments in the learning and ijtihad process? essentially and broadly - yes to development of hadith sciences, no to development of fiqh sciences and/or tasawwuf? notwithstanding pulling rules out of thin air one place, another place erecting walls around all common sense, reasoning, and valid interpretations ... all of us can cite a thousand examples of inconsistencies in their permissible and impermissible rulings.



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in the same section, just after one para, the author says:



see, without proper definitions, we are all lost like free-floating kites swaying mid-air (kati patang)

classical scholarship in which discipline? cotemporary scholarship in which discipline? Quran? Hadith? Physics? Urdu? Arabic? etc.

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i don't know what the brother had in mind when he penned this section



again, more elaboration needed, otherwise this entire section is just an alphabet soup.

which modern (colonial) "method" or "methods" is he talking about? whose contention is he refuting? what is the contention that is being refuted?

without stating all that, comments like these are just arrows shot in the air for no good reason



the immediately following paragraph in the same section can be considered the only half-relevant point in the entire section. half-relevant because it misses the relevant details of what exactly transpired at Al-Azhar and what "western style of examination systems" he's talking about, and how our Islamic style of examination systems beat them hands down. he should have at least given us the year so we could do our own research to find out what exactly he's trying to address



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i'm sure the brother is very knowledgeable and would indeed be having noble intentions.

however, the entire piece misses a clear and articulate problem definition and consequently the stated remedy/remedies too are unintelligible.

 

the problem with subcontinental learning - whether religious or otherwise - is so stuck up on memorisation of facts and technical details, that the application portion is largely ignored. i will go out on a limb and claim that 95% of dars nizami graduates will flunk a SAT type of test of reasoning, unless they have other modes of learning.

to wit:




1. the title implicitly says that it is a 'framework', as implied by the word "understanding," because you try to understand something whose existence is accepted as a given.

2. is khairabadi a) method, b) style of teaching or c) pedagogy? ok. but we thought it was a framework. and it was pedagogical.

3. but wait: what is the difference between

- a method
- style of teaching and
- pedagogy?
​

[we will come to framework later.]



forgive me for assuming that "style of teaching" and "method of teaching" are almost the same, except if you intend the teacher's idiosyncratic manner - which may not have bearing on learning per se. if i have not understood this properly, then please feel free to correct or enlighten me.

4. in #3 above, all the 3 choices are between red colour, colour of blood and the colour of a ripe tomato.

5. the multiple choice question is answered with a fourth option. "it is not alien." this would be an appropriate answer if the question was: "is khairabadi tradition a method or something alien"? assuming alien means - "something most of us are unaware of". khair. let it be.

6. it is a method. after all - not a pedagogy, not a style of teaching, but it is a method. (let us ignore the synonym thing).

7. if you are wondering that it is just a method - the clarification follows: it is not just any method, but a special method which does justice to the book in the hands of the student. fine and dandy. but a few points remain:

- how do we evaluate a 'method' and that it does justice to the book?
- this is purely subjective, unless there is a commonly agreed upon criteria for doing justice to a book in the hands of a student.
- if so, what are the criteria of doing justice?
- what is the basis of such criteria?
- where is such criteria documented and upon whose authority?
​

"my dear friend said - that a shaykh told him" - is this incontrovertible or even credible evidence? this is known as anecdotal evidence, and it cannot be a basis of generalisation. look up mirqat and i am sure you will find examples of such fallacies in there.

8. finally, the framework.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum_framework

[please do not brush me aside as a copy-paste robot. i work with frameworks, methodologies and standards and am familiar and conversant with literally scores of frameworks and standards. so i know what a framework looks like.]

if you claim that the khairabadi-farangi mahalli tradition is a 'pedagogical framework', i would like to see where it is documented and what are the features and core components of the framework. we know some names of ulama in this context; have they mentioned this in their works?

however, the dars e nizami can be loosely termed as a 'framework' because it has a set syllabus, a set number of years, and performance criteria and is used as a template all over the subcontinent for more than 300 years.

most frameworks evolve and some have to be revamped based on the needs and newer developments. has the dars nizami evolved to meet modern challenges?

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the reason i to elaborate the above was to point out the fallacies, inconsistencies and incoherence in the article. the basic idea to teach mantiq was to avoid such situations, when one's statements could be ruthlessly shot down by an opponent. we are but friends.

 

“Mawlana Mubashir Iqbal concluded a one-hour conversation yesterday with a student at Khairabadi Institute, who forwarded some objections made against the Khairabadi-Farangi Mahalli methodology of teaching. The core of the argument was that it is irrelevant, and overshadowed by better approaches, leading to the supposed death of this pedagogical framework.

Fortunately, all objections, along with related discussions have been preserved in writing—spanning a total of 15 pages—and will be released tomorrow. Insha’Allah.”

 

you beat me to it.

let's start from the beginning.

what is the contention he is refuting or rebutting?

Example:

Salafi contention: Don't study Hanafi/Shafi3i fiqh. Read only Darus Salam published Sahih Bukhari's English translation! You will become Shaykhul Islam.

Mubashir Iqbal's rebuttal: This is why I believe the above is wrong...

Titles
Subheadings
etc.

 

If you have the time and you wish to, however I feel your message already summarizes it well.

The author and founder Mawlana Mubashir Iqbal is planning to release the khairabadi curriculum soon on the site, so maybe you can comment on this and that at once.

All things aside, to me it seems his intentions are noble. I feel it comes from his teachers notably Mufti Fadl subhan who said the same thing 4 months ago and you also disagreed with.
However the pricing on the courses are exorbitant.


The article you just read is a summary in a way of this podcast interview with Mufti Fadl subhan sahab

 

everything he tries to carve out as 'salient feature' of the khayrabadi tradition is just a standard teaching method. the so-called 'farangi mahalli-khayrabadi tradition' was different only in the syllabus - it was heavy on rational sciences and light on religious subjects.

my contention is that while those books of mantiq were standard in those days to help a student identify a valid argument from a false/fallacious one, they are onerous and ineffective in our time. besides, most of the astronomy and philosophy is ancient and as muslims we do not lose anything by discarding it.

the article starts blaming the critics of dars nizami of burning strawmen, but the author himself uses up plenty of straw bales for his own arguments. and as brother AQ said: one doesn't know what irks the author - the syllabus or the method or the 'framework' (dunno what it is).

if you wish i can deconstruct the article for you.

 

Which is why your curriculum is much awaited. I really hope you have time to complete it shaykh.

Allah bless you.

 

I think it's not bad to understand. Maybe layout could be bettered in terms of the subheadings.

His ultimate objective, that the khairabadi tradition of teaching is still very relevant in this era. To say this methodology of teaching is outdated or to say the curriculum is outdated is is infective. Then goes on to explain how pedagogy of the khairabadi tradition like preparing for the dars using shuruh, emphasis on pre reading/self teaching yourself the dars. Then the ustaad deliver a speech on it which the student uses to fill in the void gaps during his preparation. At time also to teach it back to the class before the teacher does the dars.

Argues that (indirectly) by not following this pedagogical method is the reason for the declension of scholarship.

Then concludes that he feels it's the best way to study. The curriculum is still relevant as the books taught help immensely in ilm al kalam.

That's what I got out of it.
والله أعلم

 

i don't know if the author has read my ramblings or is even informed of my opinions - but in some places it looked like a measured and masked criticism of my old gripes and recent misgivings about dars-nizami. of course, i may be wrong; the author could be completely oblivious of my existence, and probably had some one else in mind.

imho, this article is proof of my complaint that the dars-nizami and its maqulat in our time are ineffective and not working. or else, the author would have avoided the many contradictions and fallacies sprinkled generously in the article. clearly, the much touted and highly extolled (in the article) "khayrabadi tradition" has not imparted its zealous proponents the ability to differentiate between facts and aspirations. ground realities aside, even the description of the 'framework' is extremely vague and is like describing an esoteric dream.

am extremely sorry for being blunt - but it sounds like a marketing pitch. "our institute is the REAL dars-nizami thing".

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dars-nizami is not a maz'hab; it was just a syllabus. of course, in the hands of competent teachers and erudite scholars, it produced stalwarts in a different age. but like many things, it is outdated. the author of the article however reads too much into this and tries to flesh out a 60-foot dinosaur upon finding a 2-inch bone fragment.

 

https://www.khairabadiinstitute.com/articles/verified-solutions-to-modern-intellectual-anxieties

maybe my english reading comprehension is getting rusty... but i couldn't decipher this article.

english language & layout, and critical thinking and reasoning-wise - reminded me of this other article refuting nuh keller - https://www.thesunniway.com/ebooks/english/file/39-a-just-reply-to-a-biased-author