salah behind salafis

i was asking suleiman; are you suleiman? after your recent posts, i don't see any need to reply to you.

i still expect an answer from suleiman.

 

No, he is not turning it into a cult, and neither does he belong to a cult. Your blackmail is no cent to us.

Sh Nuh himself uses the word 'sunnism'. If you cannot contribute, don't bother posting. This is a warning.

 

It's there in radd Al-muhtar. It is quoted by Faraz Rabbani, Sh. Nuh etc. You have the quote and the name of the book, go find it out.

 

Firstly, it was never called sunnism. By adding 'ism' you are turning it into a cult, which unfortunately it has become. I am sorry if I don't follow your cult. Please tell me if you are more qualified then say Habib Umar, Habib Ali, Sh Nuh, Dr Said Ramadan Al Buti and many many many more....??? If not, don't comment.

And plus, Abu hasan, what is the position of not being sure whether the Imam is even an innovator or not?? You are telling people not to pray in the jamaah of thousands in the haramayn because YOU believe the Imam is of a certain belief hence he MUST be an innovator. Have you verified?

 

fatawa similar to that quoted by faqir (from a hanbali manual) are found in hanafi texts. wAllahu a'alam.

---

as i said, sunnism has become only namesake. it is like saying: "whatever sunni scholars might say, i will do whatever i please. or that which makes me [my nafs] happy. and to prove myself right, i will pick and cite any quote regardless of its context."

---
reminder: will suleiman please give the reference to the quote allegedly from radd al-muHtar?

 

No, I am believer of the unseen.

Plus, what does that have to do with what I said?

No one has been given permission by Allah (swt) to make judgements on people based on assumptions.

 

jazakAllahu khair aN, I will get firefox.

Believer_of_the_Unseen, are you the same person as the recent member Talib-ul-'lm?

 

This is a complete non-issue.

I am as strick as a hanafi as anyone else but if I was at the haramayn, I will join the congregation. Heck, the thought of not praying behind them will not even arise in my mind. Firstly, I have no choice, they are the imams placed there. Secondly, I personally don't know the aqidah or beliefs of the Imams. Thirdly, I am not even sure if the Imam is an innovator. Fourthly, the logic of "if A is true, then B must also be true" does not apply in the shariah. Hence, just because the Imam appears to be from a group (in this case the wahabis) then he definately MUST be an innovator. That is a loud of bull when it comes to deciding on whether to pray behind them or not. If you don't want to pray behind them, don't! But make sure you are 100% certain that Imam so and so....is definitely an innovator. Otherwise, it is you who is doing a great injustice in the garb of "not praying behind an innovator" slogan.

And above all...most importantly if the overwhelming majority of the scholars of today from all the 4 madhabs allow it and they themselves pray in the congregation, I will have no problems.

 

Sidi Faqir, can you please enlarge the font a bit, its difficult to read.

jazakAllahu khair

 

From Matalib Uli al-Nuha Fi Sharh Ghayat al-Muntaha:

( فَصْلٌ ) ( وَلَا تَصِحُّ إمَامَةُ فَاسِقٍ مُطْلَقًا ) أَيْ : سَوَاءٌ كَانَ فِسْقُهُ بِالِاعْتِقَادِ أَوْ الْأَفْعَالِ الْمُحَرَّمَةِ , وَلَوْ كَانَ مَسْتُورًا لقوله تعالى : { أَفَمَنْ كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَنْ كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَا يَسْتَوُونَ } وَلِمَا رَوَى ابْنُ مَاجَهْ عَنْ جَابِرٍ مَرْفُوعًا { لَا تَؤُمَّنَّ امْرَأَةٌ رَجُلًا , وَلَا أَعْرَابِيٌّ مُهَاجِرًا , وَلَا فَاجِرٌ مُؤْمِنًا إلَّا أَنْ يَقْهَرَهُ بِسُلْطَانٍ يَخَافُ سَوْطَهُ وَسَيْفَهُ } وَعَنْ ابْنِ عُمَرَ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ : { اجْعَلُوا أَئِمَّتَكُمْ خِيَارَكُمْ , فَإِنَّهُمْ وَفْدُكُمْ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَ رَبِّكُمْ } لَكِنْ قَالَ الْبَيْهَقِيُّ عَنْ هَذَا : إسْنَادُهُ ضَعِيفٌ ; وَلِأَنَّ الْفَاسِقَ لَا يُقْبَلُ خَبَرُهُ لِمَعْنًى فِي دِينِهِ , فَأَشْبَهَ الْكَافِرَ ; وَلِأَنَّهُ لَا يُؤْمَنُ عَلَى شَرَائِطَ . ( وَإِنْ ) صَلَّى ( ب ) فَاسِقٍ ( مِثْلِهِ ) ; لِأَنَّهُ يُمْكِنُهُ رَفْعُ مَا عَلَيْهِ مِنْ النَّقْصِ بِالتَّوْبَةِ , ( أَوْ ) صَلَّى الْفَاسِقُ إمَامًا ( فِي نَفْلٍ ) , فَلَا تَصِحُّ إمَامَتُهُ عَلَى الْمَذْهَبِ , ( إلَّا فِي جُمُعَةٍ وَعِيدٍ تَعَذُّرًا خَلْفَ غَيْرِهِ ) , أَيْ : الْفَاسِقِ بِأَنْ تَعَذَّرَ أُخْرَى خَلْفَ عَدْلٍ لِلضَّرُورَةِ . وَنَقَلَ ابْنُ الْحَكَمِ أَنَّهُ كَانَ يُصَلِّي الْجُمُعَةَ ثُمَّ يُصَلِّي الظُّهْرَ أَرْبَعًا . قَالَ : فَإِنْ كَانَتْ الصَّلَاةُ فَرْضًا , فَلَا تَضُرُّ صَلَاتِي , وَإِنْ لَمْ تَكُنْ , كَانَتْ تِلْكَ الصَّلَاةُ ظُهْرًا أَرْبَعًا . ​

( وَإِنْ خَافَ ) إنْ لَمْ يَصِلْ خَلْفَ فَاسِقٍ ( أَذًى , صَلَّى خَلْفَهُ , ) لِمَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ قَوْلِهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم : { إلَّا أَنْ يَقْهَرَهُ بِسُلْطَانٍ } . . . إلَى آخِرِهِ , ( وَأَعَادَ ) نَصًّا . ( فَإِنْ وَافَقَهُ ) , أَيْ : الْفَاسِقَ ( فِي فِعْلٍ مُنْفَرِدًا ) بِأَنْ لَمْ يَنْوِ الِاقْتِدَاءَ بِهِ , ( أَوْ ) وَافَقَهُ فِي الْأَفْعَالِ ( فِي جَمَاعَةٍ خَلْفَهُ بِإِمَامٍ ) عَدْلٍ , ( لَمْ يُعِدْ ) لِأَنَّهُ لَمْ يَقْتَدِ بِفَاسِقٍ . ​

( وَمَنْ صَلَّى بِأُجْرَةٍ لَا جُعْلٍ , لَمْ يُصَلِّ خَلْفَهُ ) , قَالَهُ ابْنُ تَمِيمٍ . قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُد : وَسَمِعْت أَحْمَدَ يُسْأَلُ عَنْ إمَامٍ قَالَ : أُصَلِّي بِكُمْ رَمَضَانَ بِكَذَا وَكَذَا ؟ ؟ قَالَ : أَسْأَلُ اللَّهَ الْعَافِيَةَ , مَنْ يُصَلِّي خَلْفَ هَذَا ؟ ​

( وَيَتَّجِهُ ) : صِحَّةُ الصَّلَاةِ خَلْفَ مَنْ ظَاهِرُهُ الصَّلَاحُ , ل ( أَنَّ الْأَصْلَ هُنَا ) , أَيْ : فِي الْإِمَامَةِ ( الْعَدَالَةُ ) عَمَلًا بِالظَّاهِرِ , وَتَحْسِينًا لِلظَّنِّ بِأَهْلِ الْقِبْلَةِ , وَهَذَا لَا يَسَعُ النَّاسَ غَيْرُهُ , إذْ لَوْ اعْتَبَرْنَا الْعَدَالَةَ ظَاهِرًا وَبَاطِنًا لَضَاقَ بِنَا الْمَجَالُ , وَتَعَذَّرَ عَلَيْنَا مَعْرِفَةُ مَنْ اتَّصَفَ بِهَذِهِ الْحَالِ , وَهُوَ مُتَّجِهٌ . ​

وَحِينَئِذٍ ( فَتَصِحُّ ) الصَّلَاةُ ( خَلْفَ إمَامٍ لَا يَعْرِفُهُ ) أَيْ : يَجْهَلُ عَدَالَتَهُ وَفِسْقَهُ , إذْ لَمْ يَتَبَيَّنْ الْحَالُ , وَلَمْ يَظْهَرْ مِنْهُ مَا يَمْنَعُ الِائْتِمَامَ بِهِ ; لِأَنَّ الْأَصْلَ فِي الْمُسْلِمِينَ السَّلَامَةُ , ( فَإِنْ عَلِمَ فِسْقَهُ بَعْدَ ) فَرَاغِهِ مِنْ الصَّلَاةِ , ( أَعَادَ ) , وَهُوَ الْمَذْهَبُ . قَالَهُ فِي " الْمُبْدِعِ " . ​

( وَالِاسْتِحْبَابُ ) أَنْ يُصَلِّيَ ( خَلْفَ مَنْ يَعْرِفُهُ ) عَدْلًا لِيَتَحَقَّقَ بَرَاءَةُ ذِمَّتِهِ​

 

the difference is that when a sunni sincerely changes his madh'hab, he considers a particular madh'hab to be more aSwab/accurate than his current one. once convinced of the accuracy of a madh'hab, he takes the madh'hab as a WHOLE and follows the scholars of the madh'hab, because of his reliance on the imam.

the salafi however, tries to do HIMSELF at the individual mas'alah level and chooses this or rejects that upon his own fancy.

anyway, if you are interested in the subject, you may read the book 'khulaSatu't taHqiq fi bayani Hukmi't taqlidi wa't talfiq' by imam abdu'l ghani an-nablusi.

--------------

the difference between salafis and those who call themselves sunnis is diminishing rapidly. you have chosen a statement and used it to suit your understanding.

ulama have clearly mentioned that jama'ah does not merely mean majority of a particular time. mawlana ali al-qari says in his minaH al-rawD al-az'har, sharH fiqh al-akbar:

sufyan raDiyallahu anhu said: 'if only one [righteous] faqih remains [and he lives] on top of a mountain, [even] then he shall be deemed as the jama'ah.'

that is, since this individual is steadfast on that principles of the jama'ah, it is as if he embodies the jama'ah.

just as Allah ta'ala has said: 'verily ibrahim was a nation',[1] that is just one individual was as if he was a nation.

and so it is said:
it is not impossible for Allah ta'ala
to incorporate an entire world in an individual

​

in a muttafaq alayh hadith together with a similar one in muslim cited in mishkat narrated by Hudayfah raDiyallahu anhu [no.5382] says:

people would ask RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam about good [times]; and i would ask him about evil [times], fearful that i would be caught up in it.

Hudayfah said: i asked: 'O Messenger of Allah, we were in pagan times [jahiliyyah] and evil; Allah ta'ala sent us this good [times]. will there be evil after this good?'

he replied: 'yes'

and i asked: 'will there be good again after the evil?'

and he said: 'yes, but it will be hazy and murky.'[2]

i asked: 'what is the [reason/description] of its being unclear and obscure?'

he said: 'people who will follow a path that is not my tradition; and guide to that which is not my guidance. you shall [be able to] recognize [from it] that which is right and that which is evil.'

i asked: 'will there be after such good, evil again?'

he said: 'yes. those [preachers?] who invite to the doors of hell. whosoever accepts their invitation, they shall cast them in it.'

i said: 'O Messenger of Allah, give us their description.'

he replied: 'their skin is similar to ours; and they speak our tongue'

i said: 'what do you bid me do, if i reach those times?'

he said: 'hold fast unto the group of muslims and their leader'

i said: 'what if there is no group [jama'ah] nor a leader?'

he said: 'forsake all of these factions, even if you wert to grasp the root of the tree with your jaws [3] until death takes you and you were upon it [4]
​

------
in al-isha'ah of al-barzanji:

abu'sh shaykh narrating from ibn mas'ud raDiyallahu anhu: 'the sign that the hour is nigh is when fifty people pray and it is not accepted from any of them.'

which means that they shall not pray according to the conditions or principles of salah; so the prayer of all the fifty is invalid and thus not accepted.
​

Allah ta'ala knows best.
--------
footnotes:

1. surah an-naHl, verse 120.
alahazrat translates this verse as: 'verily, ibrahim was a leader'

2. the word used is 'dakhn' and ali al-qari says: 'muddled up, grayish. it means that there shan't be good that is clear and bright but goodness muddled and covered in darkness.'

3. an expression that means: 'hold fast unto it unyieldingly'.

4. ali al-qari says: that is to forsake and renounce all the factions that shall be and are against the right path and the way of the ahlu's sunnah wa'l jama'ah.

 

can you please provide the reference?

 

Bismillah...

Ibn 'Abidin obviously differs with Mufti Abu Hasan

 

I'm confused brother, then on what grounds do Sheikh Jibril and the Habaib allow it? If other madhab's too forbid prayers behind a mubtadi, shouldn't we have a unanimous fatwa from the Sunnis of all madhab's forbidding prayers behind wahabis?

Also one thing has always bothered me brother, Allahu a'lam if you can give me a satisfactory answer to this. In a local mosque where a wahabi is leading a prayer, it is understandable if one prays alone.

However, in the Haramayn, to not join the congregation of the bulk majority of Muslims seems very painful, not from a nafsanic perspective but from a qalbi perspective. The Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa 'ala aalihi wa sahbihi wa sallam, has said that Allah's yad is with the jama'ah. So how can one break away from the 100's of thousands of innocent Muslims who are guests of Allah and His Messenger in the Haramayn?

I do realise jama'ah refers to the jama'ah of the Ahlul Haqq, and not just numbers (or else, if someone lived in Iran, jama'ah would be shias for him). However, we have a loyalty to the Ummah of our Master as well. Its not about being "in" with "the crowd" for nafsanic reasons. It's about being "in" and "with" the innocent 100's of thousands from the Ummah of our Master, more so in sacred places- and most of these people ARE Sunnis and non-wahabis and non-shia.

It's about loyalty to the people of our Prophet and the operative word here is "our Prophet" not "people".

Hope you can understand my point. At an academic level, I can and do understand and appreciate the proofs and reasonings of our fuqahaa.

HOWEVER, in matters of practice in our current times, this is what I always find as a bottleneck in regards to accepting it whole-heartedly.

These are times of extreme jahalah and fitnah, rising at exponential rates. Many a time we are squeezed into a corner and forced to accept the "lesser evil". The question is, just what do we trade away and for what?

I really hope the sincere amongst our contemporary 'ulema advise us the best and most hikmah-ful course of action in regards to praying in the Haramayn without falling into or fueling fitnah.

brother, without [me] sounding smart, how do you reconcile that with the below quote?

The prime reason why wahabis do not follow madahib is because they think they are somehow qualified to see which madhab or which ruling of which madhab is "more accurate".

Just how do non-mujtahids like us judge the accuracy of one madhab over another?

disclaimer: I'm not advocating willy nilly following any ruling from any madhab for convenience sake.

PS: It is very interesting to note that the wahabis themselves do not permit praying behind "shias" and "extreme soofees". Its interesting how they flip when we Sunnis pass the same fatawa against them. They have the license to call Ibn Arabi a kafir with all arrogance. However, watch them dance when you talk in similar tones about ibn taymiya.

Anyways, my above question about loyalty to the jama'ah and prayers in the Haramayn still stands regardless of this, as we are not interested in these loonies and what does or doesn't make them happy, its more about our loyalty to OUR jama'ah.

 

I ask the admins to please remove my previous answer. I now fully agree with the answer given by our dear Sidi Abu Hasan (may Allah preserve him)

 

we must avoid performing salat behind a selefi ,vehhabi and other nonmadhabis.ıf we realızed that imam was like that we must perform again our salat

 

Assalam `alaikum,



Thank you bro Sifar. we look forward towards your translations, now that you have the eyd holidays. personally i did check with allama Turab Shah qadri - Karachi, who quotes imam rida that the prayer is not allowed. in fact he says even juma' is not wajib on us sunnis.



i was confused when the brothers said that the arab shuyukhs do pray behind the wahhabis. Well it could be occasionally, with husn-e-zann as the wahabbis (i assume) are few in sham! and shuyukhs like Sh. Nuh is a Shafi'i (in which as a bro noted, the follwer's salah is his own)!



Anyway i wished the brother who answered me (in other forum) could have given a more balanced reply, stating the position of imam rida and others.



wassalam,



Jamsheed

 

first, Salah following a man of bid`ah is makruh taHrimi in the Hanafi madh'hab. in other madh'habs it is disallowed.

imam aHmed riDa has written a monograph on this subject and named it:

an-nahî al-akîd `an as-Salâti warâ’i `idâ at-taqlîd

[a certain prohibition, from praying behind those who turn away from taqlid]

where it is clearly noted from Hanafi sources that it is makruH taHriman to pray behind any man of bid`ah and it is Haram to make them imam. no less than kamal ibn humam, the author of fat'H al-qadir one of the towering commentaries of al-hidaya and a seminal work of Hanafi fiqh declares as mentioned above. there are many other references including the ones in radd al-muHtar apart from the one you've quoted.

please note, that this is clear proof that imam riDa didn't say that those who contravene taqlid are kafirs - they are ahlul bid`ah. because salah made following an imam who has kufri beliefs is invalid altogether, not just makruh.

---
as i have said before [in private correspondence] , i am working on translating all related issues - and not restricted to fatawa riDawiyyah. if you didn't know, it takes time to translate to put it in a readable manner that is not confusing. of course, it must be because i am incompetent who is only filling the job in the absence of able folk.

all i can suggest is that you wait until i finish the job. else, if anyone else does it earlier, all the better.

---
for the brother who suggested a change in madh'hab, it is known as talfiq. changing your madh'hab for convenience, not because you believe it to be more accurate.

regardless, in a basic shafi`yi manual, kifayat al-akhyar, it is said that it is better to pray alone than pray behind a Hanafi. moreover, in their madh'hab praying jam`ah is sunnah and is not as strict as ours.

changing madh'habs is not a game. what makes us any different than the salafis?


Allah knows best.

was salam.

 

perhaps that is the reason

perhaps that is the reason that Arabs don't mind praying behind wahabis. but in Hanafi figh you cannot do that. in shafii figh (to my observation) one can offer fard behind someone who is praying sunnah, but in Hanafi figh it is not allowed.