Sh Foudah on Perennialism

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Dec 3, 2015.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i had started this translation on 10th nov and then forgot mid-way. something jogged my memory and i finished it today - so i didn't go back to listen to the earlier portion. i might have misheard something; let me know for corrections.


    there are two examples here about those who claim ijtihad in fundamentals of religion [usul al-din]. and he says, "i oppose certain absolutely-proven precepts [qaTyi'yat] and known to be necessary precepts of religion [ma'alum mina'd din bi'd darurah]. [he claims:] i am a mujtahid and i have the right to hold a different opinion.

    i have selected two examples here. one from usul al-fiqh and another from usul al-din.

    first is the saying of adnan ibrahim. and hasan ibn farhan al-maliki as i have understood from his (statements). and abu yarub al-marzuqi according to my understanding as it is clear from many of his writings. and many others who speak on religion in our time that:

    the jew and christian, remaining on his own tradition (or faith) will attain salvation by merely accepting that sayyiduna Muhammad sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam is a prophet - even if he (jew or christian) does not follow the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. even if he does not follow [the Prophet] or deem his [the Prophet's] rulings to be binding upon himself [j or c].

    in particular, in these exact words - is said by adnan ibrahim, and said so verbatim.

    and others, their statements imply the above; to be fair (they don't say so explicitly) but their statements mean approximately the same as above; but the person who said so explicitly and plainly is the first (i.e., adnan ibrahim).

    [continuing the mulHid's claim] even if he (J or C) does not follow RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam in any commandment - notice his explanation of the issue - (adnan ibrahim) cites the verse for his proof:


    that is, people of the book, the jews and christians - all are not the same; among them are good and bad (maleeH wa `aaTil) - and by that it follows, that among them are those who prostrate (sujud) and recite the book etc. and therefore, these jews, christians etc. along with their remaining upon whatever they profess, they will attain salvation.

    this is how he (adnan) derives evidence from this ayah.

    however this is not the meaning of the aayah. this aayah speaks about those who are sincere and those who are not; those who are truthful and those who are not. but that does not mean that truthful ones among them will attain salvation regardless.

    rather, they are obliged to follow our Master Muhammad SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam as mentioned in other verses as you know very well.

    he uses this verse for his proof:

    [adnan says:] this ayah mentions belief in Allah, and Last Day (judgement day) and did good deeds; and this verse does not mention belief in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. the text of this qur'anic verse does not mention belief [iman] in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    therefore these people [adnan ibrahim and others] use this as evidence to prove that it is not obligatory for jews and christians to bear faith in the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    it is sufficient for them, to remain on their christian and jewish religion and their sabian faith; but it is sufficient for them to say: "we will do good deeds and believe in Allah."

    and they say:"they believe in Allah. and many of them do good deeds. therefore they will attain salvation on judgement day."

    and what is more surprising [or shocking] than all this; i was flabbergasted at adnan ibrahim when he said concerning the council of christians, if i remember well in 1965, in vatican with the pope himself (present) or the council attested that: 'we accept that salvation is possible for (christian) denominations other than catholicism or non-christians."

    [sh. foudah's interspersed comment:] the resolution passed by the council did not specify that muslims per se will also gain salvation. they simply said, salvation is "possible" for those who are not catholics or even those who are not christians. based on the case, that they are sincere and they do good deeds and they do not seek mischief on earth etc. this is the gist of the resolution of the vatican council.
    [aH: probably the second vatican council; see pope's statement here.]

    this brother [adnan ibrahim]; what does he say? he says something revolutionary. he says: "based on this giant step forward taken by christians, should inspire muslims to

    [sh. foudah again interrupts with his own comments:] notice the vatican resolution does not specify muslims actually - it is a generic comment; and quite possible that they (the council) have a specific meaning in the context of their discussions, unlike that asserted by this man (adnan). that is, their intention/meaning might be entirely different but this man [akh=brother] is enthusiastic and in his eagerness says [adnan says]: "that we should also take steps to match them"

    [sh. foudah:] what? is it some sort of political reciprocation? that they did thus, so we too should match them? and he [adnan ibrahim] says: "it is necessary for us as well to say that salvation is possible for non-muslims despite their remaining as non-muslims".

    [sh. foudah:] in my life, i have not seen this kind of ijtihad, this kind of methodology. if a president or a minister [of government] or a journalist says such things, it can be understood. but you [adnan] claim that you are a mujtahid in fundamentals of religion and that its necessary aspects [Daruriyat] and speak like this? this is weird, very very strange.

    this discussion is not obscure for you [members of the audience] nor is it hidden from him [adnan ibrahim] because he has himself said: "i am certain that when i say such a thing, muslims will make takfir - rule me kafir." which means, he is aware of the danger of such a statement, but he may have a particular agenda. probably, he has a set objective [sh. foudah changes his mind] i won't say he has an agenda or not, but he is content with saying this over-simplified statement.

    not to mention, his repeating this statement in conferences, talk-shows, debates, seminars etc. and those who heard this began clapping their hands. great. this is what he wants.

    and we say what we are satisfied and convinced about. it is not necessary that his statements be applicable to us. and we cannot agree with him that his ijtihad [independent reasoning] led him to say these things. because ijtihad won't lead him to say such things. because there are proofs which are explicit and in far more plain words than that which he [adnan] misinterprets with his ridiculous understanding [or his stupid ideas] and flawed mind. and this guy is always making claims: "i am the smartest person on the planet" or "i read such and such a book in two hours" etc.

    all of this is empty boasting [kalam faDi/farigh] and appealing to emotion [`aTifi]; it is possible that young folk, ignorant people might be impressed and excited. but people with some seriousness and sense [razanah] will say, 'come on. you are making bizzare claims. and nobody asked you for this.' i don't want to get into such [prob. personal criticism] things but i will present sharayi proofs [refuting his claims] from kitab and sunnah.

    do you [adnan] say that you are muslim? and he [claims] he understand kitab and sunnah and read razi and zamakhshari and baydawi and quotes such-and-such linguists and derivation etc.. and he says such things which are inappropriate - and one of our brothers, shaykh bilal an-najjar refuted him on the aslein forums [see link here] and i refuted him on another issue.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  2. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    JazakAllahu khair! for the translations. Very helpful information for laymen like me.

  3. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    اليهود والنصارى مأمورون باتباع رسول الإسلام سيدنا محمد عليه الصلاة والسلام، في الأصول والفروع، ، والإسلام نسخ بعض ما كان في رسالة عيسى وموسى عليهما السلام، وأمر الله تعالى اليهود والنصارى باتباع الشريعة التي أنزلها على سيدنا محمد عليه السلام وترك ما كانوا عليه مما يعارضه، محرفاً كان أو غير محرفٍ.....
    قال تعالى:
    واكتب لنا في هذه الدنيا حسنة وفي الآخرة، إنا هدنا إليك، قال عذابي أصيب به من أشاء، ورحمتي وسعت كل شيء، فسأكتبها للذين يتقون ويؤتون الزكاة والذين هم بآياتنا يؤمنون (156) الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوباً عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ [الأعراف : 157]
    إذن أمر اليهود والنصارى بالإيمان بسيدنا محمد عليه السلام، واتباع النور الذي أنزل معه، ومن فعل ذلك، فأولئك هم المفلحون.....هذا نص القرآن....
  4. iamqasim

    iamqasim New Member

    I dont know its a right place to ask but can Any one tell me whats the difference between fuudah and not fawdah? Please educate me,
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i was recently in the book exhibition in sharjah, and saw a number of his books. apparently, he is fuudah and not fawdah as we have been saying. because, the faa had a Dammah on some of his books and sh.sayid himself says "foudeh" in one of his talks; which i had presumed to be a stretch due to his shaami accent.
  6. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    هل يجوز التوسل بالانبياء والاولياء الصالحين في حياتهم ومماتهم؟
    نعم والتوسل بهم توسل بمحبة الله لهم فهو يتوسل لله بمحبته لأنبيائه أن يستجيب له ولا محظور في ذلك ولا خروج عن قواعد الشريعة

    Is Tawassul with Anibiya and Pious Awliya allowed during their lives and after their passing away?
    Yes, and Tawassul through them is Tawassul throught the love of Allah for them.
    That is that you do Tawassul to Allah through his love for his Anbiya that he accepts through them.
    This is not forbidden and one does not go out of the bounds of the Shariah [by doing so].

    aH please correct the translation, if you find a mistake.
  7. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    الميزان هو العلم

  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    keep checking below. i have posted rush translations from shaykh sayid's talks posted by the brother.
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  9. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    تعليق على خبر:

    المصريون الثلاثاء, 28 أكتوير 2014 21:43
    قال الشيخ جابر طايع، وكيل وزارة الأوقاف، إن الجندى المسيحى الذى استشهد فى سيناء قد يبعث على نيته لأنه كان مرابطًا فى سبيل الله ويحمى حدود مصر". وأضاف وكيل وزارة الأوقاف، فى حواره مع الإعلامى جمال عنايت، فى برنامجه "مساء جديد" "على فضائية التحرير، مساء اليوم: " لا ينبغى أن نوزع الخصوصيات على أُناس معينة والله هو الذى يعلم هذا شهيد وهذا غير شهيد وقد يقدم هذا المسيحى إلى الجنة بسبب هذا القتل والخيانة الغادرة". جاء ذلك ردًا على سؤال متعلق برأيه فى من استشهدوا من المصريين المسيحيين فى تفجيرات شمال سيناء.

    اقرأ المقال الاصلى فى المصريون :دين-ودنيا/584715-وكيل-الأوقاف-الجندي-المسيحي-في-الجنة

    تعليق على هذا الخبر:
    الدخول للجنة حسبما نعرف في الإسلام يشترط فيه الإسلام لمن بلغه الدين، وعلينا أن نحكم بالظاهر من الأحوال والأقوال، ولا يجوز نتألى على الله تعالى....
    وليس في الدين حسبما أعلم أن المسيحي إذا قتل غدراً دفاعا عن بلده، يدخل الجنة بسب هذا الفعل، ولو كان صحيحا في المسيحي المصري، فلم لا يكون صحيحا في كل مسيحي، ويهوديّ، من أي جنسية كانت، حتى لو كان أمريكيا أو صهيونيا، أو أيا كانت جنسيته إن كان يدافع عن بلاده.....أم إن هذا من خصائص مصر!؟ ولم لا تلحق الأردن مثلاً وسائر البلاد العربية والإسلامية بها؟!
    الغدر والقتل له حساب خاصٌّ، والله ينصف حتى الكافر ممن يظلمه، أما الجنة فلها شروط معينة حسب ظاهر الدين والمقطوعات التي فيه، ولا يصح أن نخلط هذا بذاك، وإن تدخلت السياسة لإنتاج فتاوى تحرف من أحكام الدين فعلى الدين والدنيا السلام....
    نرجو ألا يكون ما ظهر لنا من الكلام المنقول عن هذا الشيخ صحيحاً، وليته يعيد صياغته أو يوضح لنا مقصده....فإن كان هذا حكما دينيا عليه دليل ظاهر، فليبينه لنا، وليتح للناس جميعاً الاستفادة من هذا الحكم.....
    أما قوله وقد يبعث هذا الجندي على نيته، فليعلم أن كل الناس يبعثون على نياتهم، لا هذا الجندي فقط، ولكنا أمرنا بالحكم بمقتضى الظاهر...
    ولا أعتقد أن الجندي إن كان مسيحيا، ينتظر حكما بالشهادة والدخول إلى الجنة من عالم مسلم، بل من مراجعه المسيحيين، الذين يخبرون عن حكمه بحسب ما يعتقدون به في دينهم....
    وليعلم أن حكمنا على شخص بالشهادة أو لا معلق بظاهر الأمر، وذلك بحسب الدلائل المعتبرة من الشريعة، أما الحقيقة الباطنة فموكولة لله تعالى، ومن حكم بمقتضى الظاهر صواب رأيه، ولو كان مخالفا لما تهواه الأنفس، ومن افترض فرضا، كقوله : (وقد يقدم هذا المسيحي بسبب هذا القتل والخيانة الغادرة إلى الجنة) نوع من الافتئات على الله تعالى ومن القول بغير علم، إن كان ما فهمناه مرادا له، وإن كان نسبته للشيخ المذكور صحيحة....
  10. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    رحمة الله لا نهائية ومع هذا عذابه لا نهائي" يقول بعض الملاحدة ان هذا تناقض"

    إذا أردوا إن رحمته لانهائية بمعنى أنها تصيب من كفر به وأشرك فهذا غير صحيح وليس في النقل والعقل ما يوجب ذلك وتعلقات رحمته ليست هي فقط الثابته بل هناك الغضب وكلها من أفعال الله هو فعال لما يريد لا أحد يحجر عليه فلا يوجد تناقض إلا في أفهامهم
    ولو كانت رحمته لانهائيت التعلق كما يفهمون لما عذب الله ولو لحظة فضلا عما هو أكثر من ذلك

    abu Hasan
    "the Mercy of Allah ta'ala is Infinite; and also, His Wrath/Punishment is never ending." some heretics (mulHids) say that this is a contradiction.

    "Mercy of Allah is Infinite" if they mean that it (Infinite Mercy) reaches disbelievers and polytheists as well - this is incorrect; and neither anything in scripture nor by rational evidence (naql and `aql) can it be deemed to be necessary.

    because His Mercy is not the only thing mentioned, rather His Wrath is also mentioned and these are His Divine Actions (af`al Allah) and He Does what He Pleases - nobody can stop Him (from His Will).

    thus 'contradiction' does not exist except in their own minds; and if Infinite Mercy was according to their understanding, then Allah ta'ala would not punish them (kuffar, sinners) even for an instant, let alone lengthier periods.

    [end of clip]
    aH: that which is implicit in the argument above, is that the mulHids claim that because of His Infinite Mercy, Allah ta'ala will forgive the kafirs too and bring them to jannah. because (again implicit) if His Wrath/punishment were infinite too, then it would cause a contradiction; and since there ought not to be a contradiction, His Mercy prevails and therefore kuffar will be forgiven.

    shaykh sayid refutes this (last para of this clip) saying that if Infinite Mercy should be understood as your claim, then nobody should be punished even for an instant - why the punishment for a period (before being forgiven)?

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2014
  11. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    JazakAllahu Khairan sidi aH.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    please check the videos posted by haqbahu below. am doing quick translation for the benefit of those who don't understand arabic. and editing haqbahu's posts.
    Haqbahu likes this.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @snaqshi: when you dig a hole and fall in it, stop digging further.

    that answer by shaykh sayid foudah is correct and dozens of ulama have used that description, in those words and his answer is the correct position of the ahl al-sunnah.

    wAllahu a'alam.
    Abu Hamza likes this.
  14. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    سم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    Salaam alaykom brother, my Arabic is extremely weak and very poor, it is quite possible that i have not quite grasp the jumla3, but this is what i understand:

    take the word يترددون its verb would be تردد which can mean a number of things according to its context (checked qaamoos meaning) comes up with such thins as in 2 minds, waver, fluctuate, hover waver and stumble etc.
    لا يترددون في الحكم according to my understanding would mean ahe sunnah do not hesitate (do not waver)

    Then in his next wording he says عنه بالخطأ in his errors (referring to sayyidina Mawaiyyah), the word الخطأ which can mean "the error", meaning it his his belief that hadret mawiyyah radi allahu ta'ala anho made and error and then later says but we shouldn't really talk about it. I find his words disrespectful since all sahab may Allah bless them were mujtahids (re my sahaba are like stars which ever one you follow you will gain guidence) and according to another hadeeth which states, that if a mujtahid makes a mistake in his ijtihad he will gain 1 thwaab, but if his ijtihad is correct he will gain 10 thwaabs, it is not befitting for a muslim to use such word (in my opinion) since both were mujtahids, Yes without any doubt Hadret Maula Paak shahi Mardaan's radi allahu ta'ala anhi ijtihad was better and more sound, but we should be careful when we use our word regarding the sahaba and ahlul bayt, so as not to be disrespectful.

    I do not see hadret Mawiyyahs ijtihad as a خطأ , but prefer to say and see that Hadret Maula Paak shahi Mardaan's radi allahu ta'ala anhi ijtihad was more superior (afdhal) to that of hadret mawiyyah radi allahu ta'ala anho.

    Allah azza wa jal is the all Knowing and Wise.

    If i have made any mistake in my word then may Allah forgive me for my short comings and may you accept my appology
  15. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    My Arabic is weak, but I don't see any ta`n of Sayyiduna Amir Muawiyyah radi'Allahu anh in his answer.
    Maybe you can explain. The sentence you refer to, I would translate as:

    Isn't this the standard Sunni Aqidah? If I'm wrong please correct me.
  16. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    سم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    lahowlla walla quwatta illah billah, better stay from such a person did he not read that, "the one who insults (disparages, maligns speaks ill of - my wording) of Hadret Mawiyyah is a dog from one of the dogs of hell!" [naseem ur riyaadh]
  17. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    كل الناس غلط وأنتم الصح؟

  18. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    رد الـ أ. سعيد فودة على عدنان ابراهيم في مسألة وجوب إسلام أهل الكتاب

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  19. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    هل كل من نسب نفسه للإسلام فهو مسلم؟

    abu Hasan
    we do not make any concession concerning anybody, either about him or agreement with his position - whether fiqhi position or about faith - merely upon his claim that he calls himself a muslim or a non-muslim.

    we consider only whether he is in agreement with principles of islam or not - neither more, nor less.

    for example, if one says: 'sidi i am not an ash'ari'. but suppose he attests to tanizh, refutes boundaries and so forth - he is an ash'ari, even if he doesn't call himself an ash'ari. like many scholars who follow (in practice) the madh'hab of imam ash'ari.

    we will not hesitate to consider them sunnis, just because he does not call himself an ash'ari.

    in these issues, the matter is not settled with merely a person's own claim that he is a mulhid or not; no. rather, we must see what he says. what is the meaning of his statements. what is the ruling concerning what he has said. those statements which you wish to enlighten us.

    if it is concordant with fundamentals of religion or opposed to it?

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2014
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i believe marifah is a site spreading misguidance and i'm very wary of someone they consider a scholar, unless i myself know him to be a Sunni scholar and not a perennialist crusader like ali jifry. that said, i just saw one of the videos you posted, and this shaykh doesn't seem to be perennialist, at least going by the video in post #2.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014

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