Shahid Ali continues public spat with Shaykh Asrar

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Paradise Seeker, Nov 28, 2021.

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  1. Ali Has

    Ali Has New Member

    With a view to putting this topic to bed, I urge all intersted to view and listen to the full show:

    I do not think Shaykh Asrar was promoting praying salah behind Devbandis - especially when the show is viewed in full.

    It should also be noted that Shaykh was cut short when answering this question for an Azan break and when the show resumes it begins with a new question/topic.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  3. Khanah

    Khanah Active Member

    That video is just a clip from his earlier longer video which we have already discussed. He's trying to milk it as much as possible. Like bro, even if you think he's wrong, just get over it - there's only so many times you can keep going back to this particular well
  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Did not watch it as the title itself is sufficient to know that imam Shahid is not representing Shaykh Asrar's view accurately. Don't entertain this sideshow any longer.
  5. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

  6. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Maulana Shahid is to release another video......
  7. Sunnisoldier

    Sunnisoldier Active Member

    He said Aslam Abu Damdam Teddy bear was unworthy of being an Imam for dressing like a Teddy bear and teaching kids.

    Now this video.

    Mufti sb doesn't seem to like the newer generation. Lol
  8. Khanah

    Khanah Active Member

    Having listened to the question posed to the muftis again, I can see why they gave the answer they did about fictional Zayd.

    Had fictional Zayd stated 'the prayer behind the deviant is valid according to x school of thought', maybe they wouldn't have called him a sulh kulli.

    However, in the question posed by shahid, fictional Zayd claims that 'people are not obligated to know the differences between sunni's and non sunni's in any way' or something to that effect- which probably no school of thought says. If a shafi scholar (or otherwise) believes that a prayer behind the deviant is valid, I'm sure they would not claim that knowing the differences between sunni and non sunni is not important.

    As a result, I retract from parts of my earlier posts with respect to the answers given by the esteemed muftis.

    As for shahid, the way he poses his question is negligent/incompetent at the very least. Deceptive at worst. I'll try to hold husn al dhann towards incompetence.

    As for the question of how the jahil can find who is truthful and who is not- do the Ashari's not say that taqleed in aqeedah is impermissible? Therefore, to some level, the onus of investigating the truth is upon the individual and the individual must then arrive at the correct conclusion through rational evidences. Meaning that the jahil has the obligation of not being a jahil, to a certain degree. This is the first obligation and the other obligations follow from this.

    For example:

    A is a Sunni scholar.
    B is a deobandi.
    C is a wahabi.
    D is a shia.

    Zayd the layman has the obligation of coming to the conclusion that sunni Islam is the truth whether he starts his journey as a believer or disbeliever, through the rational evidences.

    Once he comes to this conclusion, he then uses this as a criterion to judge A, B, C and D. He then concludes A is on the correct manhaj, disregards B, C and D and holds firmly to A in order to learn the remaining obligations.
  9. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    More clearly: A and B both claim to be Hanafi Maturidi Chisti Barelvi Aalims. One of the two is actually not an aalim but in fact a rafidi sajjada nasheen who is a jaahil.

    How does X who is a jahil layperson determine who is true to their claim and subsequently approach the *correct* person to escape jahalat by learning.
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    That is a perennial problem which also lay at the heart of the taqleed-shakhsi for aami discussions (see the fiqh section). To me it resembles the chicken and egg problem.

    In theory, everyone is obligated to know the daruriyaat-al-deen with a few exceptions (like new Muslims, remote settlements etc.) - but even they are obligated to not deny a daruri aspect when it reaches them (vide Imam Nawawi et al.).

    Further, if I remember correctly, Imam Ghazzali has ruled that people are also obligated to learn about the regional heresies of their respective localities - so that they can protect themselves when they come across them.

    So, in principle, a person will be at-least a sinner for not acquiring this knowledge.

    Now, if a layperson approaches a scholar to learn about this - isn't it the duty of the scholar to teach him? Rather than saying: you don't need to know. do what you like.

    It's not how that layman came to you, or whether he considers you a sunni or not, the very fact that you find him at your doorstep with such a clear question as this makes you culpable for not sharing your knowledge.

    You see, the answers do not revolve around the commoner but the scholar who, as per them, has no grounds for keeping him in the dark.

    Hence, the Muftiyan's umbrage at Mawlana Zayd for wishing to keep things in wraps, and telling people that they are not even mukallaf.

    Now this is all theory, and I concede that it's application is not so straightforward. For one, the world having become connected, heresies don't stay put within geographic limits...

    ofc, one must use hikmah and patience when dealing with people who are spoilt for choice and probably do not bring sufficient interest to the table to allow you to complete your da'wah.

    People don't become wahabis overnight, so why should we expect them to identify with the Sunni narrative in 2 minutes?

    But between hikmah and kitmaan-al-Ilm is a fine line, which sh. Asrar tried to navigate and drew the ire of his colleagues.

    Allah knows best.
    Abdullah Ahmed and shahnawazgm like this.
  11. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Imam Shahid is aware of Shaykh Asrar's clarification but he is not interested in that. He thinks the only thing available to Shaykh Asrar is retraction and mufti Sahib pretty much indicated the same.

    it was Mufti Aslam who requested the stream to be closed and it was Imam Shahid who apologised. If there was an unsatisfactory conclusion, then it should have been mentioned then.

    Yes of course it's not worth their while to discuss in private because Sunnis are really 'confused' and are in danger of being 'misled' by brother Asrar Rashid. There is no other recourse but a public retraction.

    I said it the start, this is just a waste of time and energy, and it only benefits the deviants.
  12. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Be that as it may, what do we say about the internal issue of the fatwas that do not address how an ignorant layperson would differentiate between a true sunni scholar and a deceitful claimant? It is as if there is an unstated assumption that said layperson can do so.
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    This reply suggests a few things:
    1. Sh. asrar's clarification has not reached him
    2. the topic was not settled to the satisfaction of all parties during the meeting
    3. even if not, they do not see it worth their while to pursue it privately

    either there is a terrible communication gap or some deep politics going on.

    May Allah ta'ala keep the Sunnis steadfast upon haqq irrespective of these fiascos.
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    also consider that the saa'il is not a layperson - he is a sunni grad of a well known madrasah, has been "in the news" during the irfan shah dispute etc. and has probably the benefit of prior acquaintance and as such hia question will be seen in the light of a "mujahid sunni" fighting a clever incognito "sulh kull" opportunist.

    This is a very common pattern in most places (think padri, azmi, hanif qureishi etc.) and the muftis themselves might have been through similar experiences - so it must have been almost instinctive for them to extend their support and sympathy to a "comrade-in-arms" against the champions of sulh-kulliyat (which, as everyone knows, is a raging fire in itself), thinking, "been there, seen that".

    If on the other hand, they had known that the person being asked about is a bonafide sunni with a very public anti-devbandi, anti-najdi record, they would certainly have exercised more discretion than giving a summary "daal mudill" fatwa.

    Allah knows best.
  15. Shadman

    Shadman New Member

    I always thought Muftis, Qadhi and similar were government appointed positions.
  16. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Not sure if the ummah channel clip was discusssd in the meeting but Mufti Sahib knows what has gone on. As a senior they should have contacted Shaykh Asrar before releasing this video. Now it is just going to give the impression that they are in cahoots with Imam Shahid and their credibility will be seen in the same light.
  17. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    And the mighty Imam Ghazali (ra) only managed to be conferred a single title of Hujjatul Islam!

    SubhanAllah, the times we live in today.
    Ahmet Tayfur and Shadman like this.
  18. Khanah

    Khanah Active Member

    I agree that is appears as such even though no names were mentioned.

    But if mufti aslam thinks the fatwa of being sulh kulli etc is correct- then what was he doing during the meeting he had with shaykh asrar where shaykh explained his position and everyone seemed to accept it? Then his student makes a public apology and then a public retraction and makes a mockery of the whole situation- and now this?

    If so, he's as contradictory on this issue as his student
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Fazile Jaleel Aalime Nabeel Allamah Mufti to be precise. 6 titles preceding a name ma sha Allah. I thought all those CEng, MBA, CMgr guys on my LinkedIn contacts were showoffs!
    Ahmet Tayfur and Khanah like this.
  20. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    At the very least, we can safely assume Mufti Sahib supports his student. They have behaved irresponsibly in this instance and should have discussed with Shaykh Asrar first.

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