Shan e Amir e Muawiyyah Seminar Lahore 'Allamah Dr Ashraf Asif Jalali

Discussion in 'Events' started by Nawazuddin, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Hazrat aGar aap iss khaak nashin ki post ko baghaur mulahaza farmayin to aap ko mill jaway gaa!
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so what is the proper translation?

    yes, the unjust period is when he was against the rightful khalifah as the text specifies: in the time of mawla `ali.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    no need to complain. it was an oversight and i have corrected it. we write raDiyallahu ta'ala anhu for mawla ali with all our heart even as we believe that sayyiduna ali karramAllahu wajhah was superior to and was in the right; we do not diminish a speck of the faDayil of mawla ali. i was juggling between two tabs and it was missed - anyway, i have corrected it. [i had anyway written ajma`yin in the end]

    if you want to flay me for that, go ahead and make that your most important proof. sub'HanAllah.

    just as you did not write hazrat/mawla for mawla ali and wrote it for hazrat muawiyah.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  4. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran


    However, Sultan Jayir means: Tyrant, despotic, deviant, unjust and so on.

    (I will not complain to you about missing 'radi Allah anhu' for Ali but writing it for hazrat muawiya!).

    fathulqadeer further states after the portion that you have translated:

    وإنما كان الحق معه في تلك النوبة لصحة بيعته وانعقادها فكان على الحق في قتال أهل الجمل وقتال معاوية بصفين . { وقوله عليه الصلاة والسلام لعمار ستقتلك الفئة الباغية } وقد قتله أصحاب معاوية يصرح بأنهم بغاة

    The haq was with him (Ali) during his caliphate and He was on the right in the battle of jamal and in fighting with Muwawiya at Siffin. He (peace and blessings of Allah be upon Him) said to Ammar that You will be killed by the rebellious group. And indeed He was killed by the companions of Muawiya and this clearly means they were rebels.

    and sidi abu hasan, you have mistranslated this portion:

    هذا تصريح بجور معاوية ، والمراد في خروجه لا في أقضيته ، ثم إنما يتم إذا ثبت أنه ولي القضاء قبل تسليم الحسن له ، وأما بعد تسليمه فلا

    This is explicit about jawr of muawiya and it means his uprising and not about his appointing of the judges. "this is when it is proven that the position of judge was accepted before the abdication of Hasan in his [mu'awiyah's] favour".

    you seem to give the impression that the entire 'rule' was just.

    The context of the Hidayah is clear about appointing judges by a Just-sultan and an unjust-sultan and then the two examples are given from the times of the sahaba-Hazrat Muawiya(R) and from the times of tabiyin-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf(la).

    However, sultan-jayir and ijtihadi mistake are mutually exclusive.
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    looks like nawaz/OE/hasanayn has to learn to read instead of blindly copying from rafidi literature. the very link he provides of fat'H al-qadir refutes him:

    his saying: "in his period"

    that is period of [sayyiduna] ali as mentioned by the author [of hidayah] which is the fourth and after [the period of] uthman. and he restricted it to his [Ali's] period to avoid [resemblance] with the saying of rafidis who say that he [Ali] was the most rightful [of khilafah] in all periods even in the period of sayyiduna abu bakr raDiyallahu anhu. indeed, in his period [of khilafah] he [mawla Ali] was rightful because allegiance was pledged to him and validated - therefore he was in the right in the battle of jamal and when he fought mu`awiyah in Siffin.

    (radiyAllahu anhum ajma'in)
    when people lick the regurgitated filth of rawafid, the stench is noticeable, even after a gargle.

    what he left out: because this would mean one of the three possibilities:

    - either nawaz/OE/Hasanayn cannot read

    - or if he can read, he cannot/does not understand

    - or if he understands, he wilfully manipulates text to suit his rafidi agenda.

    nawaz/OE/H quotes: about the "jawr of mu`awiyah" as he says:
    let us examine it. [purple: text of hidaya; blue: fat'H]
    his saying: "it is permissible to take charge [taqllud] in the [reign] an unjust ruler [as-sulTan al-jayir] just as it permissible to accept it in the reign of a just ruler [`aadil]. because the companions raDiyallahu `anhum accepted positions from mu`awiyah raDiyallahu anhu, and ali
    raDiyallahu `anhu was the rightful [khalifah] in his period. and the tabiyin accepted positions [of authority] from Hajjaj.." [updated]

    this would explicitly mean that mu`awiyah was unjust. what he means is - [he was unjust] in his going against [the rightful khalifah] not in his rule. secondly, this is when it is proven that the position of judge was accepted before the abdication of Hasan in his [mu'awiyah's] favour. because after that [Hasan's abdication] it is not [unjust]. and the year in which this happened is known as the 'year of unification'.

    i don't expect him to understand it but what ibn humam is saying is:

    1. sayyiduna ali was the rightful khalifah in his own time; and those who fought him were up against a rightful khalifah and were therefore not in the right.

    2. sayyiduna mu`awiyah was unjust in his uprising against mawla Ali; and not after the stepping down of sayyiduna Hasan and handing him the khilafah.

    3. he was 'unjust' only for his uprising not for anything else.

    4. rafidis claim that the right of khilafah for ali even in abu bakr's time, which we sunnis don't.

    finally, does ja'yir only mean a tyrant? sayyid murtada zabidi, says that jawr means "unjust" naqiD al-adl.
    jawr (ja'yir): it is said "Tariqu'n jawr"/ a detour; "that is jayir" attributed to the maSdar. as it is said in the hadith of miqat of Hajj: "it is a deviation from our route" / wa huwa jawrun `an Tariqina. that is, it is a bypass and not straight ahead; from jaara/yajuru (deviation), when someone deviates.
    the problem with desi and ajami rawafid/rafidi muqallids is that apart from other handicaps, they run away with false positives due to their ignorance of usage.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    fat'hu'l qadir

    وقوله في نوبته : نوبة علي التي ذكرها المصنف هي كونه رابعا بعد عثمان ، وقيد بنوبته احترازا عن قول الروافض إنه كان أحق بها في سائر النوب حتى من أبي بكر رضي الله عنه ، وإنما كان الحق معه في تلك النوبة لصحة بيعته وانعقادها فكان على الحق في قتال أهل الجمل وقتال معاوية بصفين . { وقوله عليه الصلاة والسلام لعمار ستقتلك الفئة الباغية } وقد قتله أصحاب معاوية يصرح بأنهم بغاة ، " ولقد أظهرت عائشة رضي الله عنها الندم كما أخرجه ابن عبد البر في الاستيعاب قال : قالت رضي الله عنها لابن عمر : يا أبا عبد الرحمن ما منعك أن تنهاني عن مسيري ؟ قال : رأيت رجلا غلب عليك : يعني ابن الزبير ، فقالت : أما والله لو نهيتني ما خرجت
  7. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    imam ibn hajar asqalani discusses the matter of authentic narrations about the fazail of hazrat muawiaya(R) and says that 'the story of Nasai is famous aboutthe matter' and mentions that imam ahmed ibn hanbal has indicated that there is nothing authentic about hazrat muawiaya. ibn hajar asqalani says at the end of his discussion: there are many hadith that have been reported about muawiya but none of them from an authentic sanad and this has also been stated by ishaq bin rahway and Nasai and others.

    It is clear from imam ahmed ibn hanbal, imam nasai, imam ishaq bin rahway and others, says, imam asqalani that nothing authentic has been reported about hazrat muawiya(R).

    brother aqdas, this what you requested and I have provided.
  8. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    aqdas brother, the story of imam nasai is a famous one. In Ibn khallikan's wafayat al'ayan it says that "imam nasai went to damascus towards the end of his life. He was asked about hazrat muawiya's fazail. He replied: if he is saved from the punishment on the day of judgement then that would be sufficient for him. In another report he said: I do not know any of his fazilat except that May Allah never fill his belly...."

    Shah abdulazid dihlawi in bustanul muhadithin translates it as: agar uoo sar ba sar nijat yabad uoo ra kafi ast.

    This is reported by many other ulama in imam nasai's biogrpahy. He is amongst the sihah sitta authors.
  9. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Sidi wadood, the context is about permissibility of working as a judge for a sultan jaer.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    if you guys are uk born n breds, then you really haven't been to school!

    otherwise i'm inclined to think yarafidi is run by a bunch of rafidi imports!
  11. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    The whole context is in terms of the Haq of Mawla Kainaat.

    والمراد في خروجه لا في أقضيته

    Sayyiduna Ammar was martyred by the Baghis within the army of Sayyiduna Mu'awiya raDyAllahu 'anhu, not by Sayyiduna Mu'awiya himself.

    Shaykh Muhammad al yaqoubi mentioned that there were these Baghis in both of the armies.
  12. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    In the link that Nawazuddin posted, you will see

    واستقضى معاوية أبا الدرداء بالشام وبها مات

    Our Master Sayyiduna Mu'awiya raDyAllahu 'anhu, posted Sayyiduna Abal Dardaa' raDyAllahu 'anhu in Syria, and it is in Syria (Shaam) that he passed away

    Now was not Sayyiduna Abal Dardaa' raDyAllahu 'anhu in support of right of Mawla Ka'inaat raDyAllahu 'anhu?
  13. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    nawazuddin, in the link you posted, it clearly mentions Sayyiduna Mu'awiya in relation to the Haq of Mawla Ka'inaat karamaAllahu wajhu, who was on Haq. It is in that context that the mistake of Sayyiduna Mu'awiya is mentioned, and he is titled as a Sultan, not the Caliph.

    You cannot compare him to Hajjaj.
  14. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    I believe Hazrat Muawiaya(R) to be a sahabi and what I believe about Him is what our great Imams of ahlesunnat have stated about him. If you would like I can provide the believes and names of those imams for you.
  15. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    one at a time, nawaz. please give us the quotes from imam nasai and ibn hajar first. and please translate them for us yourself.
  16. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    OMG! calm down. accusations, name calling. I will state one by one what I have said. I am surprised that you guys do not already know this.

    I have just located online one of the most important texts on hanafi fiqh. Imam marghinani authored Hidayah which is taught in darse nizami and imam ibnulhumam wrote a commentry on it called fathulqadeer. both books are famous and referenced by all sunni hanafis.

    in the text of Hidayah imam marghinani says: It is permissible for one to become a judge in the rule of an tyrant/oppressor and then as an example He mentions that Sahaba became judges in the rule of Muawiya and tabieen became judges under hajjaj bin yusuf.

    in the commentry imam ibnul humam says that this explicitly states the tyranny of Muawiya..
    هذا تصريح بجور معاوية

    you can find both here at Islamweb:
  17. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Their hit and run tactics, and writing an (r) in a bracket, look more and more like twelvers on shiachat. They pick and choose to their fancy. Since when did the mufaddila started reviling a Sahabi? Their quarrel was in the tafDeel issue, not revilement of a Sahabi (companion) of RasulAllah salAllaho alaihi wa alihi wa sallam, naudhubilAllah
  18. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    Nawaz is that Rafidi OE aka Hasnayn the Ustadh of Abdul Qadir and his father.
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    those are authors whose works are relatively easily available; and fathulqadeer is also easily available. it's a shame that no hanafi scholar in recent times came across what nawaz seems to know.

    shouldn't be too hard to come up with a reference and/or a scan for nawaz who seems to indicate that he knows what exactly he is talking about - unless of course his confidence is riding on some forum post at yarafidi.
  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Nawaz: please post the quotes from imam nasai and ibn hajar. Unless you do, you won't be allowed to post.

    On top of that, you must also make clear what is your view of sayyiduna mu'awiya?
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013

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