Shaykh Asrar | Deobandis and Blind Comformity

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Aqdas, Aug 11, 2020.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Shaykh Asrar mentioned there are six works of Alahazrat on imkan al-kadhib. I only know of three.

    Who knows the others?
     
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    When we say some or partial, that's compared to all.

    All knowledge is only for Allah. The Knowledge of Allah is unlimited. So obviously, anything less than that will be some or partial, even if it is vast.

    The knowledge of RasulAllah ﷺ is so expansive that ma kan wa ma yakun and the preserved tablet are only a part of it.

    But, although no one in creation can even begin to comprehend its vastness, the knowledge of RasulAllah ﷺ is still limited. When this limit is compared to all knowledge, it is some or partial.

    But compare it to creation or ma kan wa ma yakun or lawh e mahfuz, it can never be described as small. Whoever does that has a diseased heart.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  3. Truth Seeker.

    Truth Seeker. New Member

    Thank you very much for responding Hazrat Abu Hasan. May Allah reward you immensely.
    Just saw you responding hoping you would be here I am posting a few more questions.
    Jazak ÀLLAH.


    Just about finish the live discussion. I came across a few more questions. You can just answer whenever you have time for the benefits of laymen like me and the knowledgeable people on this forum.





    A) Sheikh Asrar also mentioned that the passage from Al Malfoozat of Ala Hazart regarding Hazrat Junaid Baghdaadi where Hazrat Junaid Baghdaadi Rahimullah is attributed with an statement of don't call Ya ALLAH or say Ya Junaid instead of Ya ALLAH, is a forgery which is stated by Ala Hazrat himself in Fatwa Razwia Shareef. Can Hazrat Abu Hasan or any learned or knowledgeable brothers can shed some light on it?
    It's one of the passages which is often quoted/most quoted to dismiss/lebel Ala Hazrat as Innovator.

    2) Is the also the absolute agreed upon verdict that it's disbelief if someone believes that any Prophet like Hazrat Isa Or Hazrat Musa (Peace and blessings be upon them) or Angle of death to be more knowledgeable than our Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) ? I read something similar from Preamble to Faith and I think I remember the same from the speech of Muzaffar Shah Saheb ?




    3) Sheikh Asrar Rashid has also quoted Imam Gazzali's statement of discussing knowledge of Hazart Jibraiil Alaihi Salaam(or Angel of Death, I exactly don't remember) and our Prophet's knowledge. A kind of comparison. I just wanted to know what to know what exactly Imam Ghazzali said as it should be case that Imam Ghazzali has shown the excellence and superiority of Knowledge of our Prophet and his high status in comparison to anyone. I was wondering why deobandis would bring forth that issue.
    Can anyone post the translated passage from Imam Ghazzali?

    4) Sheikh Asrar also mentioned that it's vaild position to believe that our Prophet ( Peace and blessings be upon him) did not seen ALLAH according to the opinions of Hazrat Ayesha and Abdullah ibne Masood (Allah is pleased with them). It's first time I have heard it . May because of my limited knowledge or my background from India because of the famous verdict of Ala Hazrat. Is it vaild difference of opinion? And if someone starts denying the vision of ALLAH here after then is it kufr?

    And please excuse my ignorance in any of my questions or my way of questioning. Jazak ALLAH .



    Jazak ALLAH.
     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    another closer analogy is that of books.

    the illiterate villager will be awed by a couple of books. a schoolboy in a small hamlet thinks that the dozen books on the schoolmaster's shelf is all the knowledge there is. an ordinary teacher may imagine a lot of books but only those who have visited libraries or seen some can imagine the sheer size of the LC.

    all this knowledge is a drop from the knowledge of sayyiduna aadam alayhi's salam.
    and the knowledge of sayyiduna aadam alayhi's salam is a drop in the ocean of the knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    to rephrase mulla ali qari - it is equivalent to one line from one among the billions of books in a library.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ba'aD in arabic is a very expressive word. due to the constraints of the english language, it is often translated as 'some' or 'partial'. while technically correct, it does not convey the idea to someone without a proper introduction to the concept.

    yes. if anyone denies that the prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam did not have *any* knowledge of unseen; or in other words: 'absolutely none'. that person is a kafir as he denies the muHkamat [expressly said, obvious, clearly understood] verses of the Qur'an.



    ===
    if one intends to mean that 'little' is like flashes here and there, or like the mubtadiys like devbandis and wahabis insist that only specific excerpts, then indeed, it is a non-sunni position. as shaykh asrar pointed out devbandies have an aqidah statement for all seasons.

    but yes, so long as one accepts that he sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was given the knowledge of unseen but only disputes the extent of this knowledge, and his feeble mind and weak faith cannot accept the vastness of the knowledge, he is an ignoramus and because of his contradicting sunni ulama, he is a mubtadiy. especially in our times, he is a wahabi or wahabi influenced dolt.

    much like a village idiot, of feeble mind and weak faith, who has not seen a body of water bigger than a pond; who will insist that "if at all an ocean exists, an embankment can be easily built around it by two people in one week." such a person cannot comprehend the existence of multiple oceans.

    but at least, he is not like a martian who has never seen water.

    ===
    partial knowledge of unseen is in relation to absolute knowledge of unseen which belongs to Allah alone. but this 'partial' knowledge is so vast that the knowledge of Tablet and Pen are a part of it.

    the caspian sea is considered the world's biggest lake [i.e. inland body of water] - how big is it? about 143,000 sq.miles.

    the arctic ocean is considered the world's smallest ocean - how big is it? about 6.1 million sq. miles. 4165%

    how big is the world's largest ocean, i.e. the pacific ocean? 63 million sq. miles.

    ocean.png


    how big is the caspian sea compared to the village pond?

    the deobandi's knowledge and imagination cannot go beyond the village pond.
    we say [using this body-of-water analogy], even the seven oceans of the earth are like a drop in the ocean [of RasulAllah's knowledge].

    the demented heretic insists that it cannot be more than a pond. [not even the caspian sea!]

    that is the difference

    ---
    those who say that ulum-khamsa were not given to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam are refuted by the hadith itself: "i know the names of the riders, the names of their fathers' and the colours of the horses".

    after all - ma fi'l arHam means knowledge of about the child being a male or female before it is born. we can assume that the riders are male, and even if you assume they were female - their 'fathers' ARE male. and RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam KNOWS 'their names'. anyone with some common sense will understand that 'names' and 'colours' is an indication of the level of detail known by him.

    suppose one says: "zayd will have a son" not as a prayer or expectation but as certain knowledge, is this not "ma fi'l arHam"? and this kind of knowledge is given even before their great grandfathers have been conceived! and 'their fathers' means the whole line of ancestors AND THEIR NAMES.

    if one's thinking is constrained by the village elder's diktat that "there is no body of water greater than the pond of my village", can you expect the village idiots to think beyond it?

    they will make videos guffawing like clowns that 'so and so says there is something like an ocean. mawlana can you believe it?' the second clown will sigh. "huh. how ignorant!".
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  6. Truth Seeker.

    Truth Seeker. New Member

    As salam o alaikum.

    Can any knowledgeable brother explain it properly when Sheikh Asrar Rashid said that our Prophet (Peach and blessings be upon him) has *some* knowledge of unseen? He stated that it's Sunni position. While reading an article penned by Hazrt Mufti Munawaar Ateeq, he stated that everyone from Ahle Sunnah believed that our Prophet has extensive or immense or great amount of knowledge of unseen bestowed upon him (Peace and blessings be upon him) and so I wanted to ask has Sheikh Asrar Rashid meant while saying *some* knowledge of unseen in context of knowledge of unseen of five special unseen matters ? Because what I have read or heard is that only *five unseen knowledge* issue was differed upon. Though all Sunni scholars believed that He (Peach and blessings be upon him) was bestowed knowledge from these five unseen as well and it was *atleast* partial. Though Imam Jafar al kattani and Ala Hazrat and other Sunni/sufi group (May Allah be pleased with them held the view that our ALLAH granted complete knowledge of unseen of these matters as well to our beloved Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him).
    I actually just wanted that some knowledge brothers or learned men reply to this query. It will be very kind of you if you state and clear the sunni postions in a more understandable way regarding knowledge of unseen. Can Hazrat Abu Hasan/Hazrat Aqdas/Hazrat Noori or any learned people can reply to it when ever they have time?
    Jazak ALLAH.

    A) Is it kufr if a person does not believe the bestowment of *any* knowledge of unseen on our Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him)?
    I have heard it's kufr from a sunni knowledgeable brother quoting Mufti e Azam e Hind (Alaihi Rehna) and Mufti Akam Sahab's speech.

    A) Is it ok if a person believes that our Prophet has a little knowledge of unseen without meaning to belittle his great rank?
    I have read it's non Sunni position.

    C) Is it the Sunni position if a person says that our Prophet has partial knowledge of unseen refering to special case of five matters of unseen? This is what I have read.
    Is that our Sheikh Asrar Rashid was referring to when using the term *partial knowledge of unseen* ?

    **) Is it also the agreed upon and the absolute verdict that it's a disbelief to consider anyone even any other Prophet like Hazrat Easa Alaihi Salam or Hazrat Musa Alahi Salaam or Hazrat Khizr or Angel of Death or anyone more knowledgeable to our Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) ?

    P.S. Just a layman sunni, follower of Ala Hazrat who is trying to gain and comprehend the necessary knowledgeable with regard to the Deen of Rasool Allah.

    -A laymen.
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    some people are bestowed this great blessing. they become the identifiers of the jama'ah.

    EVEN for those who read books and are purists.

    ---
    suppose you come across a book or a manuscript by a scholar in the past and you do not know about him.
    we first try to search biographical compendiums to see what prominent scholars have said about him. the referral method.

    suppose you don't have a biographical note - how do you evaluate this scholar? i don't know about others, but this is my method.
    we try to look for clues in the work - whom does he quote, whom does he cite as authorities, whom does he praise.


    let us say, this scholar/book is from 8th century AH (i.e. 700-800 AH). if he cites nawawi or ibn abd al-Salam or ibn daqiq al-yid. hmm. we are doing well. suppose if he says: "imam ibn taymiyyah" - i will have reservations though i will not dismiss him outright, unless i see conclusive proof.

    but if he says: "the mujtahid imam taqiyuddin subki..." or "our shaykh taqiyuddin al-subki" that is a surefire marker. 99.99% he is a sunni.

    ----
    whether people like it or not, dhalika faDlullah; these people become timeless and the identifiers of your jama'ah.


    i think everyone knows the proverb - "show me your friends, i will tell you who you are".
    the overwhelming majority among the awaam of the subcontinent does not know ash'ari and maturidi. BUT they know baraylawi and alahazrat.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    going by that logic, we should call ourselves "ahl al-sunnah" like the salaf, or even plain "muslim" like the saHabah among the salaf. using ash'ari/maturidi should also be avoided.

    ---
    these additional 'clarifying' tags were added to differentiate the false claimants from true adherents. when even the ahl al-bid'ah called themselves 'muslims', those on the path of the sahabah differentiated themselves by adopting 'ahlu's sunnah' and thereafter ash'ari/maturidi. when deobandis [wahabis of the subcontinent] began calling themselves 'sunnis and hanafis and sufis', the yardstick developed - even though it is a new thing - was imam ahmad rida khan. sunnis from the subcontinent know that HE is the yardstick. if anyone squirms at his name, that person appears to have an infection and something wrong in his adherence to ahl al-sunnah.

    why should imam ahmad rida khan raDiyAllahu anhu be considered the yardstick? it is a topic for another day. plenty has been written, but i will mention a very simple test: take any of alahazrat's positions that any-doubter [or clowns] seeks to criticise. measure it against kitab & sunnat, tafsir & sharh, usul & usul & usul [kalam, fiqh and hadith] and opinions of towering imams of the past. if you find them compatible, you have found your proof. if you think it is not compatible - you are welcome to post on our forum and wa lillahi'l Hamd we have been dispelling such mistaken notions for years now. wa billahi't tawfiq.

    so baraylawi is a marker of correct sunni aqidah. it started out as an accusation by the deobandis, but has now become an identifying mechanism. shaykh asrar sahib is a well-read man, and he can talk about 'ash'aris and maturidis'. but the awam of the subcontinent - even numerous graduates from islamic seminaries do not know 'ash'ari-maturidi'.

    BUT what they know is that affiliation with alahazrat is a mark of sunni; and affiliation with devband is a mark of wahabis and their ilk.

    so instead of doffing this - which has NOW become a badge of honour - we should strive to eject all those who claim to be baraylawi and contradict the fikr of alahazrat.

    ===
    i watched a few parts (hope to watch all 4 hours in a few days when i get the opportunity to drive for a few hours) and kudos to the shaykh. but i don't agree with him in a few issues (pardon if it is already covered in the talk).

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  9. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I salute Sh Asrar for taking this step to what should be the first step to end this cult of blind following that has caused such disunity in our ranks. Is it a realistic step, probably not but is it the right step, certainly!
     
  10. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I thought brother Fayyaz was the star performer last evening and overall an impressive tag team not seen this effectively since the debate with Damishqhi.

    The key take away is that Sh Asrar mentioned the stance promoted by Allamah Saeed Asad (not ignoring the issues with him) that unity is possible, if we stop just blind following and defending elders but rather analyse the beliefs in light of the principles that both parties agree on. This is because both ascribe to the Ashari/Matarudi creed and are Hanafis so the principles will be easier to agree on too. It's just a case of being objective.

    Unfortunately, I don't see the Deos seeing it like this especially, the two clowns who need to keep up their circus act. How many more times are their antics going to be roundly refuted before they realise what fools they are making of themselves and by extension their maslak.

    They need to get the message because if they want to get petty, then the biographies of their elders will be opened and they may have to demonstrate to their viewers what Ganghoi Sahib was doing with Qasim Nanotwi sahib in a mehfi. They are better off just heeding the Shaykh's advice and speak to their respectable elders and get some meaningful dialogue going.
     
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Only that scholar can take a stand on issues who has conviction in his knowledge. Who isn't half baked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  12. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Alhamdulillah, Shaikh Asrar has pointed out Irfan Shah's bidah and heretic belief that Allah Taa'lah swears! More scholars should come up and denounce this belief lest we have more ignorant followers blindly adopting this belief.
     
  13. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran


    Shaykh Asrar covered the antics of Irfan Shah and Hanif Rafizi in yesterdays Facebook live.
     
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Shaykh did well.

    A few points:

    1. Both Sunnis and devbandis must move away from blind following. Their elders aren't sinless. If they err, both groups should denounce the error and not follow, justify or defend it.

    2. The schism was originated by Ismayil Dihlawi and devbandis are his later followers.

    3. Sunnis need to move away from blind confirmity to pirs.

    4. Sunnis do distance from those who have erred, like Umar Ichrawi, who was refuted by Abu'l Hasan on SunniPort. (3h42m on video)

    5. He made an error at the beginning. He said, Barelwis and deobandis should refer to themselves as Ahl al-Sunnah. He meant, groups shouldn't identify with later names. Not that devbandis are Sunni.

    6. He refuted tafdilis and named Hanif Qureshi a few times.

    7. He mentioned some mistakes of Sayyid Mash'hadi.

    8. The brother in the middle, Fayyaz, was impressive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  15. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

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