Shaykh Asrar on istighathah

I would add that the proofs for istigatha with the Prophet (sallalhu alayi wa salam) are stronger and clearer and more numerous than istigatha with the awliya (in which case proofs exist but are not as strong. Correct me if I am wrong but they are mostly logical proofs.)

So we should practice istigatha bil-nabi more than isigatha with the awliya

Also most awam can be easily trained with proofs for istigatha with the Prophet (sallalhu alayi wa salam). Give them the Hadith of the Blind Man and tell them it is sound. Those with more knowledge can be given logical proofs. Istigatha with awliya is harder to prove by itself. Most people will stutter if put under pressure. So if they have proofs for istigatha with the Prophet (sallalhu alayi wa salam) first it becomes easier.

 

The quote you were responding to was nowhere saying that you should seek madad from awliya Allah and not from Allah. It was concerning the custom of the deos, who have no problem seeking the help of doctors, mechanics, etc, but have a problem with sunnis seeking help from the awliya Allah.

 

My sincerest apologies from the depth of my heart if you truly felt insulted by my remarks.
But it was only a natural reaction to what seems like a purposeful misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my stance.

And that coupled with rhetorical questions with undercurrents of mocking in response to points I was making.

And not to mention the literal snipping of my statements out of their original contexts and presenting those as my view (ie strawmanning).

It seemed that this was intentional. So my response was similar in kind.

But if it was unintentional on your end, then I sincerely apologize.

 

You do love lavishing a dose of condescension on me (who clearly has not been blessed with such excellent understanding and comprehension as yours).

This is not even the point of the original discussion. No one is denying it’s validity here.

If relying on Allah solely is superior like you agreed upon below, then we all agree there is not need to frown upon people who don’t do so.

If a scholar deems istighatha bil awliya should be stopped according to their legal reasoning based upon the general situation in the UK, then why are we crying and insisting upon it as if barelvi identity will be lost without it.

Sadd al dharai is a valid argument in the case of the UK, maybe not whether you live.

 

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You are unnecessarily creating a false dichotomy.
Remembrance of Allah manifests in different ways.
Directly saying his name Allah
Saying Hu
Reciting Durood

some narrations also mention:
Mention of the Awliya brings about the Rahmah of Allah.
The mention of Hazrat Ali is considered Ibadah.
Etc

 

Why are you asking a rhetorical question when you clearly actually do need help understanding and have very poor reading comprehension?

I said that the deobandis and wahabis reject istigatha altogether ie they consider it shirk, kufr, bidaa etc, because they are unable to fathom that a Wali of Allah (who they consider dead) can help them with the permission of Allah. In other words, they have difficulty trusting in matters of the unseen realm…whereas they will ask from other than Allah when it comes to the seen realm…

Why did you bring yourself in to it?
Are you a deobandi or a wahabis?

Merely not relying on istigatha vs considering it kufr are 2 very different things…

 

dodge my rhetorical question. amazing.

 

I’m flattered that you consider me a Wali of Allah and are calling upon me to help you (sarcasm)

However, it seems that you are incapable of understanding via the means of my explanation

Hence you should heed your own advice and ask Allah directly for help in understanding

 

is it truly the majority though?
It seems more like speculation and assumption

also, it may be that Sunni Awaam in different regions of the world have varied depths of understandings with regards to correct Sunni Aqeedah.

Where I live, most Awaam don’t even classify themselves to any particular category (ie deobandi, Sunni, etc) since they are that clueless about the differences.

And the ones that do claim Sunniyat, more often than not, they think it’s because they attend Mawlids/Meelads that they’re Sunni.

And from among those, I have never personally ever heard anyone publicly practice istigatha.

And suppose I were to, I would naturally assume that since this person is familiar with istigatha (which according to me is rare to find due to all the brainwashing and wahabi influences), then he most likely also knows that Allah gave the wali (being invoked) the power to assist. Case closed.

And even if it were not the case that this individual has the correct Aqeedah regarding the help of a Wali, then even then, this is clearly a small minority.

so where should the Sadd-Adharayi mainly be applied?
The subcontinent?
And why? Because an Alim in the UK says so.

Are the Desi Sunni Ulema really that fast asleep such that they don’t truly recognize this “major” issue..?

and if it was truly an issue, wouldn’t the deobandis be all over it and take full advantage? And if so, what would do the Sunni Ulema do? they would respond accordingly. There is never a lack of Sunni Ulema in the subcontinent ready to respond to deobandi/wahabi criticisms.

And when they do respond, I would assume that they would obviously defend istigatha in such a manner that the correct understanding is instilled into the hearts of the audience that it is Allah who empowers the wali to assist. Etc

 

I’m glad you agree that asking Allah directly is superior.

What? If I don’t rely on istighatha bil Awliya and ask Allah directly does it mean I don’t believe in the unseen and have weak iman? Help me understand.

 

And then when questioned regarding this hypocrisy, they like to resort to the foolish categorization of taht Al-asbab and fawq-Al-asbab…pretty much making up new terms, as usual, to befuddle the questioner

 

Shah Abdul Aziz Muhaddith Dehlawi rahmatullahi alayh writes:
اگر استعنت لغير الله بوجه که عتماد غیر نه باشد و او را مظهر اله داند این استعنت نه صرف رواه است بلکه طریقه انبیا و اولیه است

If one does isti`anat, not depending on other than Allah (believing it to be mustaqil bi dhat) but rather believing it to be a manifestation of Allah’s help then this is permissible and in fact the way of the Anbiya and Awliya

 

Exactly, brother.

Also, you might have noticed, the shayatin from deoband often refer to the act of seeking help from the the awliya Allah as ''ghayrullah se madad", thereby insinuating that sunnis don't ask Allah for help; but when it comes to seeking the help of a doctor(even if the doctor be a kafir), the deo suddenly remembers the lesson on means and asbab, and chooses not to call the doctor ghayrullah!

 

No I’m not saying that.
I’m saying that Istigatha bil Awliya (with proper belief and understanding) is a form of relying upon Allah because the Awliya of Allah are His slaves and they are chosen by Him.

As in the deobandis/wahabis yaqeen/iman is very weak/nonexistent in spiritual means (vs physical means), so they try to cover up for this weakness by rejecting istigatha/istimdad/tawassul/ and other spiritual means altogether

But they will have no problem relying on the asbab of the dunya (ie going to the doctor, mechanic etc) since this is directly tangible and doesn’t require belief in the unseen whereas Istigatha does require belief in the unseen/spiritual realm.

 

what is your proof that it takes greater yaqeen and belief to rely on the means?

are you saying that istighatha bil Awliya is superior to asking Allah? Can you please clarify brother. Not sure I am understanding your point correctly

 

There are people who are running away from Barelwis. Are you referring to those true Barelwis upholding Maslak-Ala Hazrat and rejecting deviance, and people are running away mainly because of Istigatha?

If so, then good riddance. Guidance is from Allah. We don’t need misguided people polluting the ranks of AhluSunnah.

No one disagreed that one possible response can be “Allah ka karam hai.”

And if someone instead says “Ghaws e Azam ka karam hai” believing him to be a Wali and dependent upon Allah, then once again no problem. If anything, this shows strong Aqeedah in the Awliyaa and their tasarruf. And this type of belief/Aqeedah requires strong yaqeen.
And you won’t find wahabis and deobandis with such yaqeen, hence this being a hallmark of true Sunnis.

It takes greater yaqeen and belief to rely on the spiritual means that Allah has granted us then to rely on the physical material means. And the spiritual means obviously include the Awliya and Istigatha/istimdad through them.

 

the general hukm will always be given for the majority, exceptions and rukhas will be there always,

or maybe compound rulings can be issued- this ruling for ulama, this ruling for students of knowledge, this ruling for awam (that's the ground reality anyways for a bunch of things- all the hiyal and rukhas are employed by the ulama, the azeemat is handed over to the awam so that they get more rewards!)

brother, we're Sunnis not french!

the french insist on identifying and defining themselves by opposing anything that complies with Islam, even if it is basic common sense! (or maybe the english too)

our reality and identity is not defined by just going diametrically opposite to devbandis. if they justify eating crow, we will oppose them. if they justify eating lamb, we will not oppose them. even Ala Hazrat said that devbandis are wrong but not everything they say is wrong or needs to be negated. PLUS he clearly said then (if only ulama paid heed) in his times, our differences with them are not just due to niyaz, Fatiha, 3urs etc. but aqaid!

in any case, we are not denying istighatha or visiting awliyaa. we're talking about rectifying OUR awam, who seems to be slipping more and more day by day! we're so lost in going against devbandis, we've even lost sight of going against hindus or christians! what's the point doing istighatha based on a Sunni scholar's fatwa and getting tawhid or other aqaid wrong and pandering to hindu fancies or letting your child stand with the priest and say hallelujah before a meal! this is not suu az-zann. this is ground reality of Sunni awam.

the ulama post Ala Hazrat are to blame for this (illaa maa shaa Allah some good ones and his close aides)

firstly, they never carried Ala Hazrat's legacy holistically, and latched on to the easiest short cuts and mustahabbaat, ignoring the rest. i personally find it disgusting and shameful that a person who prays 5 times a day diligently is deemed to be a wahabi/devbandi by default unless he somehow proves himself as a Sunni (like it or not, this is how the awam's mentality works on ground!)

secondly don't say Ala Hazrat's poetry and writings - Ala Hazrat's poetry has been more infused into the awam, unwittingly due to its standalone brilliance and beauty or deliberately as the easy way out for career-peers to hide their ignorance, but even ulama are not fully conversant with his prose let alone awam. of course illaa maa shaa Allah.

so much so that now it has become a case of becoming more Ala Hazrat than Ala Hazrat himself!

again - to hell with the fault finders. it's not about them. 1) we're not defined by trying to tackle what they think and feel in their diseased minds 2) our stance on tawassul and istighatha and visiting mazars is clear and we are not ashamed of it or making it known to them

it's about US and our own state of affairs.

no one is assuming the worst of Sunni awam. let's talk with facts on ground. i suggest you do simple social experiments (i suggested before too to brother Unbeknown)

1) pull aside 10 people outside a dargah - ask them basic questions about if "the wali acts and helps independently of the Iradah and Qudrah of Allah?" - i'm not making any judgment calls. get the data and share with us too.
2) we just passed Muharram 10th - pull aside 10 Sunnis after Jumah and ask them if Ala Hazrat forbade 3alam and ta3ziya processions or not!
3) pull aside 10 people outside a dargah and ask if placing a chadar costing 2.5 lacs is israf and tabdhir or not? and isn't it wajib to endeavor to do Hajj if the guy had that kind of money?
4) pull aside 10 random people after Jumah and ask them the definition of a Sunni/Barelwi. (is that too much to ask of a person who identifies himself as Sunni/Barelwi)
5) HR style - give three words to describe Sunni/Barelwi