Shaykh Asrar on istighathah

Can you please share some examples of such “actions and sayings” that hint at the idea that these Awaam believe that the wali acts and helps independently of the Iradah and Qudrah of Allah?

 

So you’re inclined towards believing that most of the Sunni Awaam that practice Istigatha do so while believing the Wali to be acting independently of Allah?

 

I’m a little confused by your post. Can you please clarify?

Are you referring to the telegram channel
“Barelwism exposed?”

it seems like a deobandi run channel

 

On the contrary, if I am not mistaken, the concept of Istigatha and relying on the Awliya for madad was something that was in fact encouraged due to its great blessings and benefits and even exemplified by Ala Hazrat in his books and poetry. So a natural consequence of Awaam following Ala Hazrat in his poetry and writings is also following him in his practice of Istigatha. In fact, this was the mark of distinction that was proudly upheld and made apparent Sunniyat and filtered out the Wahabis from the Sunnis, and still is in effect till the present day.

Why then should one move away from this practice just because of the false impression it may create in the eyes of the fault-finders and those who suspiciously hold negative opinions and assume the worst about the Sunni Awaam?

 

But isn’t this part of the criticism?

That deobandis and wahabis have poisoned the minds of the Awaam so much so that they are pushed away from Barelwis because they see what they perceive as “shirk” occurring?

And in order to prevent the perception of shirk in the minds of the brainwashed, critical Awaam, the rest of the Awaam should refrain from instigatha?

And perhaps, if we were to take it a step further: even some contemporary Sunni Ulema are now being pushed away from the Barelwis due to having their ears filled with the constant complaints and criticisms of the brainwashed Awwam (and maybe some deobandi-leaning sulh kullis), that “Barelwis don’t seem to represent Sunniyat because they are engaged in possible bidaat and haram.” So in order to appease and respond to these criticisms, there is a two-pronged approach of clarifying istigatha as well as at the same time telling the Barelwis to tone it down a notch with the Ya-Ghaws and increase the Ya-Allah.

So it seems to be more an issue with perception which, unfortunately, seems to comes down to su-e-dhann (of the Barelwi Awaam) as well as giving into Wahabi/Deobandi objections, and unsurprisingly, further strengthening these objections. “Look even your own Ulema know it’s wrong.” Etc

Also, if I were to take a guess, historically-speaking, istigatha was much more prevalent in the subcontinent (among the awaam) and this was something that was considered normal. And if it was happening more pervasively back then, then it makes sense that any aberrations in its understanding and proper usage would have also been more prevalent back then. Yet, (as far as I know) there is no fatwa of Sadd-dharayi (regarding istigatha) from Ala Hazrat and the other past Ulema. Whereas other issues, such as bidaat at the Mazars for example, were certainly addressed.

 

enemies jaayein chulhe mein bro.

rawafid were lying even in the times of Imam Abu Hanifa, they're still lying today. wahabis were barking like dogs in 1755, they're doing it in 2023 too! devbandis were lying and scheming in 1903, they're still doing it in 2023, they'll continue doing it after you and i are gone too!

it's about horses for courses bro.

not everything has to be defined by defending against them or refuting them or thinking about what will their reaction be.

if you're living in some part of town where 20% of the teenagers are opioid addicts, and another 50% are into dating, porn, gangs etc. sure you will protect your kids against drugs and teach them about the harms and evils of it - but not to the extent you turn a blind eye to the rest of the other nonsense

we also have to worry about our own people too. it is a fact that our maulvis have gone overboard in this so called rattafied (mugged up) radd of devbandis/wahabis, that they can't see the other harms faced by our people

no they're not.

do the awam even pray the 5 prayers on time? because more maulanas teach them about istighatha and fazail of awliyaa than about the importance of namaz. even within the discipline of awliyaa, people are taught more about fazail and karamaat and istighatha than their life seerah's or their teachings. this is a fact!

it is a fact that especially the "tanatan" awam sees people who pray the 5 prayers diligently, or if their women wear niqabs, as wahabis/devbandis, and they'd be quite surprised if they turn out to be Sunnis; this is a real fact of life on ground in Urdu/Punjabi culture of the subcontinent!

thanks to the great work done by DI & SDI (much hated by the tanatan crowd), the men folk can be recognized as Sunnis, and may even be admired by the tanatan awam, if they have a full beard and 3imama, but a lot of such men too don't bat an eyelid at the state of purdah of their women - i can vouch for this as a fact among my tanatan Sunni neighborhood in india; as well as what i've seen in Sunni awam anywhere from dubai to new york to toronto to houston to sydney to london to atlanta to manchester; even in the Haramayn, but not as much as other cities due to obvious reasons of visiting with reverence (of course not saying that on oath, for 100% of the awam, you know what i mean; plus the term "awam" needs to be defined to take an oath!)

the laymen of Imam Ghazali's times are different from the laymen of Ala Hazrat's time, who are different from the laymen of our times

i'll bite.

YES

if it were up to me, i'd restrict the awam from visiting mazars lest the gaddi nasheen was a man of knowledge AND the visitor also proved how to respect it's sanctity, could give a brief intro to the teachings of the sahib-e-mazar, and answer a short quiz on some elementary beliefs regarding Allah and His Messenger 3alaihis salam!

the current state of affairs at the mazars is nothing shy of a mockery of the awliyaa themselves and all they've ever taught or stood for!

as a precedent, Ala Hazrat assigned Sadrush Shariah (rahiamhumullah) to test knowledge of aqaid, fiqh, and tajweed before he would sign someone off as a masjid imam!

the reasonings of Hanafi (and other mazhabs too) fiqh for women being restricted/restrained from praying in mosques is well known to both us and devbandis or anyone else

if one demographic of society (women) can be restrained and restricted from visiting mosques for namaz, then you betcha a much larger demographic (a lot of men and a lot of women) CAN AND SHOULD be restricted from visiting mazars of awliyaa!

i don't remember now but i think it was either Mulla Ali Qari or Imam Ibn 3Abidin (rahimahumullah) who said people in our times shouldn't stay in Makkah for any longer than the necessary time of Umrah in order that they don't fall into sins while there! if roadblocks can be placed for Makkah, they sure can be placed for Ajmer and Kaliyar!

go ahead and shoot me!

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my own real life anecdote from the dargah of Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliyaa radi Allahu 3anhu (delhi) sometime early 90's

this some sort of "official" chanda-collector/gaddi nasheen right before the entrance to the mazar, was asking all visitors to pay a chanda/tribute/Fatiha money to anyone who visited, by nearly bullying. i was with a local (i was NRI) who just said, we come a lot, we pay at other places, don't wanna pay now. this really irked the guy and they had a bit of a squabble and the guy i was with stood his ground. then this chanda collector said "Khwaja Sahib ne chaha to tumhare paas paisa rahega hi nahin" apparently as some sort of a bad-dua! this IS the state of the awam as well as the gaddi nasheens at mazars!

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we need to sit in the driver seat for our own matters; and not let what the enemy will think/do dictate our actions

our awam is being fed fazail and istighatha to no end, while our scholars are not looking at so many other issues like basic aqaid, faraiz, societal issues of inheritance, marriages & divorces, the hindu filth of dowry in Muslim society, issues with in-laws & joint families, the issues with the riddah taught by bollywood, etc. that's all pending work from the 1970's and 1980's btw, and i daresay wahabis/devbandis are ahead of us on these matters from the pov of their own jahil fiqh.

once our ulama clear those backlogs, they need to tackle lgbt, perennialism, modernism, secularism, atheism, AI, ChatGPT, cryptocurrency, metaverse, spacex, etc.

 

I reiterate my position.
I have no objections to the Wazaif, Amal and Awraad that contain istigatha and tawwasul. Only the excess istigatha seen/heard of at mazaars and certain mahfils. Not the khatms.

They give a rather odd perception of Barelvis/traditional Sunnis to wahhabis, and sometimes rightfully so, due to the neglect of the awaam in also mentioning Allah.

Everyone who knows the creed of Ahlus Sunnah knows that asking anyone for help is only by the Qudrah and Iradah of Allah.

But is the awaam really aware of this?
The actions and sayings of many of the awaam seem to hint at the negative. It reeks of ignorance of basic fiqhi matters as well as aqa'id.
Hence I stand with the opinion of the scholars who uphold the position of sadd al-dharai in this matter.

 

Maybe this thread should come to an end, these are two scholars who are respected they have their differences leave it at that.

 

Btw the title of this thread should be changed. Sheikh Asrar and Mufti Zahid are both scholars. We should respect them regardless of any disagreements we may have. They are not football teams. I kindly request admin to change the title to something more respectful and appropriate.

 

Brother, you are literally straw-manning, when did I say i entered a masjid and heard a few people, I am telling you what shaykh asrār said in the clip. This also has nothing to dhikr. Shaykh Asrār is saying people are calling up Shaykh ʿAbdul Qādir al-Jilani ؒ by saying Ya Ghous Ya Ghous, but where is Ya Allāh. He is also saying other bad practices that they have such as circumambulating graves and kissing graves.

He is not saying Istighatha is not allowed whatsoever, he defended it in his debate against ʿAbdurraḥmān Ḥasan.

 

again bad assumption.

when some one asks you how are you? you reply back with Alhamdulillah. This is basics

But what i said and i stick to this belief is, if some one does reply back by saying gawthe paak ka karam he, then there is no harm in this as it is jaaiz. I am not negating that one should not say Allah ka karam hai.

Exactly this is why people are running away from barelwis cause an amal that is jaaiz and well accepted within the doctrines of Ahlus sunnah are being discussed as if they are a major issue.

 

huh, cause istigatha is permitted and practiced by many awliya who have even recommended it to the laymen to recite these wazaif whereas deviant book have got kufriyat in it and if you not knowledgeable then there is a risk of shaytaan influencing you.
you comparing 2 very different things.

ok show me where the awaam has gone overboard on istigatha? and i ask again what is the limit on calling upon the awliya a day?
finally is calling upon the awliya not calling Allah?

 

Makes total sense and everyone agrees. No need to discuss further right?

Apparently not:

This is why people are running from barelvis. Because we can't even agree that the response to how are you should be Allah ka karam hai.

 

This is badgumani (bad assumption). How can you 100% say that the sunni does not remember Allah?

If you a staunch mureed who does all his awraad and wazaif then the zikr of Allah comes up first (e.g. with panj ganj qadriyah) where the aspirant is required to make zikr of Allah after every salah and other wazaif.

Please man, dont complicate life. Just cause you entered a musjid/ mazaar and heard a few people say ya gawth, you can jump to the conclusion that they dont remember Allah.

Many Khatme qadriya mehfils and 11vi mehfils often start with quraan recitation then zikr of Allah and then the Khatme qadriya. But if you walk in at the time the khatme qadriya started you cant say "oh these sub continent sunnis only busy with istigatha".

 

Another thing to add is he has only restricted this for the awaam and not the scholars, if then asked why, then it can be said for the same reason we prohibit the awaam to read the books of deviants yet the ʿulamā' can read them.

 

This is solely dependant upon how widespread the bidats and haram become. If it reaches such a state where the vast majority who visit mazaars are jahils who do plenty of deplorable acts,
Then, yes, perhaps sadd al-dharai will apply there as well.

The point is to apply the restriction until the masses have been taught the correct way and such acts stop, not to prohibit it indefinitely.

 

Asalam Alaikum

Never once did i say our ʿulamā' go over board i was clearly talking about the awaam. What was also meant by overboard was in context to which the awaam go. They say Ya Ghous, Ya Ghous Ya Ghous but where is Ya Allāh. This is what Shaykh Asrār was saying. So in the case of the Awaam it should be stopped.

 

today its sadd al-dharai on calling upon the awliya

whats next? sadd al dharai on going to the mazaars of the awliya as ignorant jaahils are placing their heads on the graves of the awliya?

 

why did he delete it then? He should of left it on his channel

what's overboard? whats the limit on istigatha? how many time can we call upon The great Gawth? Kindly answer with reference to authentic ulama and awliyah.

show me instances where proper barelwis and proper sunni ulama from sub continent going "overboard" with istigatha

as if they not doing that was asrar sahibs clips as we speak.
Deobandis are well known to edit clips and videos. They are shameless and are well known liars. Their ulama have been lying since hussam ul haramayn days....

nah you just giving our enemies more ammunition for propaganda against beliefs of ahlus sunnah that our ulama defended for the last few hundred years.