Shaykh Asrar on Mawlid Debates

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Nov 16, 2022.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    to some perhaps. to me it gave no such impression.

    let's not stir the pot when we all agree on the same thing essentially - permissibility and praiseworthiness of Mawlid.

    the crux of the matter is this:

    i think there are 3 things here, for our times at least

    1. permissibility of mawlid itself (no disagreements. no one asked anyone to stop defending or discussing this)
    2. impermissible actions/munkarat in mawlid celebrations (again no disagreements. no one said you like the munkarat or don't speak against them; despite the fact that a lot of scholars sweep this under the rug)

    i think Sh Asrar didn't articulate well, but he was probably talking about the third thing

    3*. a) the abusers, who behave like us in defending the permissibility (against wahabis) but really only use that defense as a launchpad to push their own jahl, heresies, fan clubs, and vested interests etc..
    b) those who brush the munkarat under the rug (some may not do it, and Hafizdh As-Suyuti certainly didn't, but many many 'scholars' do) and somehow manage to club it together with 'defense of the Mawlid event itself'
    c) those who are incompetent and inept in defending Ahlus Sunnah and make us look silly.

    the 3rd point is not the same thing as a 40 yr old teenager coming to the mosque or a Mawlid gathering wearing low cut jeans and exposing his backside (a norm again these days) and a maulana correcting him

    *PS. i'm not saying any of these apply to the imam Asim who was debating that wahabi cartoon


    actually that "very sorry to say" was for Sunnis in general because of our state of affairs. i didn't assume you disagreed with Sh Asrar on shunning munkarat.


    you didn't get me. qtv is a case of people brushing things under the rug, and not addressing the munkarat properly. as far as female presenters are concerned. they can advise the female presenters to be properly dressed in compliance with the Shari3ah. i could bring in more fiqh points from my meager understanding but we'll leave that for later.

    but anyways that's a lesser issue that they have brushed under the rug. the damned elephant in the room is tahir whom they promote.

    no. don't stop celebrating.

    strike a balance in our approach.

    maybe even change the approach to be more effective

    list out all of these actions to dawah man and ask him which of these are haram/halal and why, if someone or a group of people do it on their own free will at a time and place of their choosing?

    by the same token, ask a couple of Sunni scholars that if all these actions took place in a gathering, and we just didn't call it "Mawlid/Milad", would things be any different?

    what if 1 person did only the first 3 actions, and another the next 3, and a third person does the last 3 actions - could each person's individual event be called a Mawlid and/or reward worthy? if not, why not? if yes, why yes?

    we need to be against donkeys like this dawah man
    we also need to be against a whole truckload of Sufis and juhalaa

    we also need to ourselves address genuine issues of munkarat being done, for it is more painful when idiots like this dawah man bring them to our attention.

    it applies to any event where munkarat take place. in some cases they are the norm. example, dargah's and all the munkarat that take place there.

    i speak only for myself, not Sh Asrar. perhaps he had something totally else in his mind when saying that in that video.

    Allah knows best.
  2. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    If some one thinks that we criticize non shari'i acts during mawlid gathering to please others, then this assumption is wrong. Because our elders, like Imam Suyuti rh, Imam Ibn Hajar etc, they all held mawlid gathering to be permissible but said that such gathering must be free of ghayr shari'i things. So it is the requirement of sharia that wrong things be avoided.

    Secondly, we conduct mawlid gathering for our own sake. It brings happiness, we thank Allah ta'ala ,it brings baraka. It was our prophet sal allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam, who taught us about Allah. Who taught the world about human rights, no racial discrimination , rights of slave. rights of animals etc. So mawlid gathering is a source of spiritual blessings as well knowledge.

    Thirdly, it should be known that deobandis/ wahabbis will never join mawlud gathering because as per rashid gangohi , deobandis are not allowed to join even those gatherings in which "no gahyr shari'i activity" takes place and only ' sahih ahadith " are read out.

    A few fatawa from deobandi book " fatwa rashidiya" ( written by rashid gangohi)

    Question1 : Can we participate in those mawlud gathering in which no ghayr shari'i activity takes place and only sahih ahadith are read out?
    Answer: No, it is not allowed , due to some other reason.

    Question 2: Can we drink water/ sweet drink from the sabil which is installed during the month of muharram? ( Note: it is for the ithal e sawab)
    Answer: No.

    Question 3: At some place people consider it a sin to eat black crow's flesh. what should we do?
    Answer: At that place eating crow's flesh will give you reward.

    Question 4: Hindus give sweets during holi and diwali, can we eat?
    Answer: It is permissible / there is no harm.

    This is deobandi religion.
  3. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Mawlid gatherings in itself is permissible and a good deed. It bring baraka and rahma as has been verified by many sunni scholars and even Imdadullah muhajir makki, the grand peer of deobandis. Mulla Ali qari rh said, offering food during such gathering is also a good act. Alhamdulillah, we held many mawlid gathering, recited mawlud , read out hadith describing blessed birth of prophet sal allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam. We distributed fruits, warm clothing and pamphlets in local language among muslims and non muslims with teachings of prophet alayhis salam, such as paradise is under mothers feet, take care of your neighbors etc.

    All the wahabbis were silent. We took out juloos during day time, held jalsa at night. No girls, no drum. All as per shariah.

    Today when orientalists and wahabbis are trying to show disrespect to prophet alayhis salam, sunnis should work hard to conduct mawlid mehfil round the year with grand preparation. Scholars and learned people should be invited so that people don't do wrong things.

    Wrong things need to be stopped, mawlid should not be criticized.

    We need to criticize saudi wahhbi attack on yemen.
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  4. Iblis cried on 4 occasions- one of those when the Holy Prophet was born (Peace and Blessings be upon Him). Those crying now should reflect on this.

    Shariah is full of examples condoning gathering for Allah's sake, Hajj, Jamaat for Salaat, Janaza, eating, Eid, Sawm. Gathering is a sign of unity, unity us a sign of togetherness, togetherness is a sign of oneness and Oneness points to Tawhid.
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  5. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Fine. I will start a different thread. When "kufr" matter can be discussed on forum, I am sure fiqh should not be an issue.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sorry, not possible.
    besides, this is a different discussion. if you try to divert this conversation to your pet peeves, i am deleting your posts.

  7. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Please help me in understanding that what point are you trying to make by citing this example? Mufti Akhtar raza Khan azhari considers TV to be haram but at the same time bestows his khilafat on those people who come on TV.

    Mawlid celebration is allowed and in fact in today's time it should be much emphasized , but at the same time ghayr shari'i things need to be criticized, which we all agree.

    It is like Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan azhari sahab saying that TV is haram, but at the same time giving khilafat to qualified people, who come on TV channels.
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i didn't say that shaykh asrar does not know about it. i was just pointing out that sometimes it becomes necessary to defend a furuyi practice to stop attack on the rest. if you don't it simply goes on and on:

    - what about niyaz of awliya? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about visiting graves? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about visiting madinah? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about reading tasawwuf books? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about feeding people in muharram? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about fatihah? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about burdah? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about na'ats? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about istimdad? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about tawassul? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about tabarruk from relics? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about worship and fasting on 15th sha'ban? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    - what about using dayif hadith for faDayil? permissible, or haram/bid'ah? fiqh or aqidah matter?

    since most or all of these are mustaHabb actions, just leave them completely and stop discussing their permissibility. end of story.

    i am sure that we have no difference; but this clip within itself was unwarranted - it gives the impression that shaykh asrar is unsure about mawlid. if he was giving advice on the dawahman-asim debate, he should have said: 'don't waste time arguing about it. do something better.' now, don't blame anyone if it turns up in the oddest places - devbandis and salafi 'brothers' -sharing with glee: "see barelwis are also following us now..."

    why except? did i say anything different?

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  9. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Do not rush aH. This clip is from the recent Tahawi classes and in the same dars the leather socks were mentioned and why they were mentioned (tawatur and the Rawafid). Full video should be up soon.
  10. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    I see no difference between what you and Asrar in what you are saying, except he is saying most milads have issues of concern nowadays.
  11. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    That is the essence of what he is saying. I see no difference.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this happened a while ago - during jumu'ah khutbah, the person sitting next to me was browsing and replying on facebook. i wasn't looking here and there - he was sitting next to me and i couldn't help noticing it. obviously, i couldn't ask him to stop either as it would be impermissible for me to do so at that point. he stood up and left immediately after the salam.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    don't get carried away AQ. i won't respond to you point-by-point, but your post is full of self-contradictions.

    for example:
    in which case, you should side with the fatwa of taj al-shari'ah that TV is completely haram, and therefore madani channel should also be stopped.

    there are two things here:
    1. permissibility of mawlid itself
    2. impermissible actions/munkarat in mawlid celebrations
    when we argue with najdis and mawlid-haters, we are talking about the first one. we don't argue about the second point. this is from suyuti's time [husn al-maqsid trans, p15]:


    another unwarranted statement that implies that we are against it. who is against condemning munkarat? if someone does not do it publicly or writes a book or talks about every munkar there is, it does not mean they condone it.

    you assume that i disagree with shaykh asrar's criticism of munkarat. i have said in my post that i myself do not go to mawlids - even in masjids (where there is no free mixing etc.) unless i am confident that the speaker won't say something that makes me cringe. after being forced to correct major blunders of sunni speakers after their speeches (happened a few times) i simply stopped going to gatherings unless i know that some cautious maulvi sab will be speaking.

    you assume that we want shaykh asrar to sign a blank paper saying "anything done by anyone who calls himself sufi is right. no questions asked.'

    who asked you for a carte blanche?

    blame it. you clean missed the point by half a mile.


    that is why asked whether you will stop mentioning the ahl al-bayt with respect just because rawafid exaggerate that?

    in the end what is the summary of your and asrar sahib's position? we should stop celebrating and defending mawlid and allow 'dawah man' to prance around making faces: "kullu bid'atin dalalah..."?

    as i said, it is misplaced zeal.

    wAllahu a'alam.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    you're responding to Moriarty's ladies' Milad posted in post #11

    i concur with Moriarty, and it is NOT a silly objection.

    qtv is run ostensibly for the sake of Sunnis. there are respectable ulema (to the awam at least) that come to lecture on it. if they relay programs like this, the awam takes it as scholarly sanction.

    the way those ulema and hosts of qtv talk about, address and mention such things, if someone asks about it, it sums up to this - rephrased in my words -

    1) yes listening to na3ts by women is sinful, or watching women's vocalizations of Milad are not permitted for men, but we're a tv channel meant for responsible Sunnis, so if you see such a show, be an adult and don't watch. those programs are meant for women only ---- with that logic, they might as well start broadcasting women's only dance or aerobics classes, all based on the honor code that Sunni men should shut the tv off when they see this stuff!!!

    aside - notwithstanding that a lot of women presenters who come on there are all dolled up, even if with proper hijab. also notwithstanding, that quite a few desi women (on qtv or otherwise) simply can't come to grip with proper Shar3i hijab and think that their dupatta is the be-all and end-all of Shari3ah's rules of hijab and modesty!!!

    2) yes a lot of wrong things happen, but they are a lesser evil and an alternative to outright fawahish like movies, dramas, etc --- mark hanson uses similar reasoning when he says that perennialism is a great non-confrontational way to present Islam to the western audience!

    aside- i agree that people should not be barred from attending a Milad or a special Shabe Me3raj mehfil with the intention that those who don't pray all year, at least they do some good deeds on that one day or that these events will be door openers for them to in-sha-Allah become more practicing Muslims, but people should be taught the priorities of deen, or else this lesser evil mantra will eventually lead to pure evil. years ago, i saw a couple of zealous people all coming to the mosque to pray nawafil on Shabe Me3raj, and those guys hadn't prayed 3esha even! i politely told them brothers please offer your farz 3esha prayers first, then you pray the nawafil.

    no, but i will say without reservations that most people who go to mosques these days are careless to the point of disgust in the usage of mobile phones (it ranges from callousness to turn them off/silent inside the mosque hoping no one's gonna call, to letting them ring during salah to taking calls in Jum3ah khutbah to those careful ones who call back after salah, INSIDE the mosque disregarding others who are praying Sunnah, to people taking selfies inside the Haram, to people even using facebook and twitter) -

    because reading newspapers or wearing kafir celebrity picture tshirts might be rarities, but ruthless carelessness in the usage of mobile phones is the NORM, as is plush extravagance in mosque decorations with million dollar chandeliers and so on!!! sure, you may not do such things yourself, i don't either, and people in small town masajid in india might take greater care, but the NORM that i have seen in the west and Arab world is what i just said. (remember Wadood's more affection for Malayali brothers and less affection to Pakistani ones ;) )

    we 'judge' a situation based on the norm, not the exception. we're not wahabis who will hang by the word 'kull'.

    does that mean we stop going to mosque? no, but we unequivocally condemn the bad norms that have crept in our societies.

    very sorry to say, but Mawlids, and na3tkhwanis more so, along with other 'Sunni' events have become fashion statements by people of duniya and the wrong practices have to be condemned. i concur with Shaykh Asrar Rasheed's statement, although i would have said 'the salafis' as opposed to 'our salafi brothers'.

    not true again. of course Moriarty isn't talking about Ibn 3Ataillah when he says Sufis today don't condemn this stuff.

    any proponent of Sufism has to distance himself from this dirty hippy culture. what we see in these times is the exact opposite. for money, or fame or winning fans, 'scholars' (even upright ones by 3aqidah) will gladly condone such or similar stuff and then it's all downhill for the awam. or of course, based on that same lesser evil maxim.

    with due respect to your knowledge, we are not in those times anymore. people are no longer defined by certain stances, which was the reason behind Imame Azam's mentioning of that fiqhi issue.

    in these times even perennialists and any secularist zindiq liberals celebrate Mawlid

    people like jifry make it a point to extrapolate that to even Sayyidina 3Isa 3alaihis salam's birth celebration on christmas and make sure he greets the catholics and protestants in december and the orthodox in january! won't be long before hanson extrapolates it further to mark budh jayanti/vesak (why should he not celebrate Khidhr 3alaihis salam's birthday too, right? he considers buddha as Khidhr wal 3eyadhu billah), and who knows tahir might even come up with a fantastic explanation for celebrating ram navami

    tahiris sing Ala Hazrat's Salam left right and center. like it or not, as much as my heart would want to say so and wishes to say so, fact of the matter is subcontinental Sunnis are NO LONGER (as in now and henceforth) defined by Ala Hazrat's Salam.

    when i was a child, for me and my parents and grandparents, if we ever passed by some place, a house or mosque or anything, if the sounds of Ala Hazrat's Salam came from there, we would be delighted and our faces would lighten up. now, sadly, if i hear the sounds of Ala Hazrat's Salam coming from somewhere, i'm forced to tell myself these guys could be anything, real Sunnis or tahiri hippies, not make too much of it (the event, not the Salam), and move along! (despite loving the Salam itself)

    to be honest we really are stuck between wahabis on one side and perennialists and dirty hippy secularist liberals (who feign Sunniyat) on the other side. we have to safeguard ourselves from BOTH sides

    i respect your comments full well, but you're speaking only from the angle of anti-wahabism, while Asrar Rasheed is speaking from the angle of anti-wahabism as well as anti-(liberalism + perennialism + secularism).

    Allah knows best.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i received these milad cakes videos by brothers on whatsapp. i told them it is silly and what does this have to do with our mawlid?

    just because rawafid self-flaggelate in muHarram, and exaggerate in the love of ahl al-bayt - we cannot stop loving the ahl al-bayt or give them reverence as is due.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    in summary, principles and practice are two different things. in principle mawlid is permissible and should be defended. in practice, only that mawlid which adheres to sunnah and is free from objectionable actions [by the shariah] are permissible.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    oh, by the way. imam azam was also arguing about a fiqhi non-issue in his book of creed!

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  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    rather, shaykh asrar has committed hasty generalisation, in his zeal to prevent people from committing munkars.

    it is true that many people commit anti-shariah and anti-sunnah activities in the name of celebrating mawlid. it is also true that we are so busy in defending the practice, that we don't take time out to criticise these bid'a committed in the name of mawlid and to teach people not to do so. i don't attend mawlids unless i am sure that there won't be any anti-sunnah practices there. and for many years now, i spend the night of mawlid at home.

    a couple of years ago, i attended a mawlid with a program like this:

    - recitation of qur'an
    - dhikr
    - a few poems of alahazrat in praise of the prophet (from which some lines were explained to the common public)
    - 10-15 minute explanation of the practice of mawlid, objections on it, answers of sunni ulama and the sharayi Hukm
    - 1 hour reading from ibn sayyid al-naas: 'nur al-uyun'; a quick summary of the biography of the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam; highlighting points of about his sunnah, his noble character and certain miracles.
    - a 10-15 minute quick Q/A
    - dua
    - salam
    - food

    since then, a few other friends have been doing a similar mawlid. in addition to nuur al-uyun, last year, there were readings from 'mawlid barzanji'; and this year, from 'loving the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam' the portion from shifa sharif.

    in another mawlid this year (only last week), the first five hadith from arbayin al-nawawiyyah were read and explained [along with basic principles of hadith, and associated hadith in the context of the first 5 hadith of arbayin; using ibn Hajar al-haytami's sharh and ibn rajab al-Hanbali's jamiy al-ulum as a guide].

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and if imam suyuti did not include it in his maqaSid al-Hasanah, i doubt anyone in our times would have heard of it. that shows how confident our ulama were about sunni positions. what i find rich about wahabis is that they praise and quote fakihani's objection to mawlid, but ignore his categorisation of bid'ah! you should see the titles and accolades the heap on fakihani.

    what a silly objection! which aalim condoned it? i don't know of any reputed sunni aalim who says that any of the videos below are praiseworthy or permissible even.

    you can go down in the street and capture dozens of munkarat on your phone - and post them here saying: 'i have not heard of ulama condemning it'. the question is: how many ulama did you ask about this, and how many:

    - dismissed it as a non-issue?
    - refused to comment and chose to be non-comittal?
    - praised it or justified it?
    you can just tell us numbers, how many did you ask and what was the response?

    i am surprised at this self-flaggelation. every sunni alim who supported celebration of mawlid clearly specifies that it should be free from actions that are against the sharia'h. the jahalah of a few people cannot be cited to reject the practice or condemn everyone who celebrates mawlid.

    have you visited a mosque recently? how many munkarat people commit! i once entered the masjid for jumu'ah and saw a young man wearing a sweatshirt with an obscene photo of a female emblazoned on his shirt. you know young people these days...but still, i couldn't stop myself. i approached the young man and told him that he shouldn't wear it anytime, let alone a mosque on a jumu'ah. to his credit, the guy asked me what he should do now. i told him to go back and change his clothes. he immediately left the mosque.

    once, as i was finishing sunnah prayers after jumu'ah, a man came in and sat down close to me. he opened a newspaper - and you know how newspapers are nowadays. he spread it on the floor and was reading - pictures of scantily clad women again, and kafirs etc. spread out on the mosque carpet. i went to him and politely told him that it was impermissible as the masjid is for dhikr of Allah ta'ala. he gave me a stern look and continued turning pages. i persisted and i suggested why can't he go out in the yard, as there was a bench there too. he ignored me and clearly took offence.

    will you say that all people who go to masjid wear improper clothes and read newspapers? and ask people to stop going to masjids because all they do is read newspapers?

    same silly objection. by that logic, every munkar you have not posted here is not condemned by you.

    according to your logic, any mufti who says that 'kullu muskirin Haram' is not sufficient. he has to condemn each and every type and kind of wine - see this infographic: [you will have to run through other wine directories].

    otherwise, you can say: "i have not seen any mufti condemning chardonnay or sagrantino..." and lament how muftis are lax and do not condemn certain types of wine.
  19. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Here is a womens 'milad' relayed on Tv. Never heard the Ulama comdemn it:

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  20. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Here are samples of 'milad cakes':

    In the first video they actually sing 'Happy Birthday Ya RasulAllah' !

    Here the cake is made a ritual:

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