Shaykh Asrar on Mawlid Debates

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Nov 16, 2022.

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  1. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Here is a sample of what is actually not condemned by Sufis today:

    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  2. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Shihab I think you have totally misunderstood his position.

    The point about spending millions on a non issue, and instead should be spent on tackling Zionism, related to Wahabis and not Sunnis. The efforts spent against mawlid are futile and not of those who defend Mawlid. Otherwise the speaker hinself a staunch defender of Mawlid.

    As for points regarding lights, flags and the term 'Mawlid', those points were mentioned because both Wahabis and Sunnis debate the points instead of the core issue. The core issue is whether commemorating the birth is permissible or not?

    What specifics are considered innovation have been differed over by Sunni scholars themselves, like Imam Ibn Hajar Makki saying that to stand specifically at the point of the mention of the birth is an innovation. These finer points are differed over.

    I consider the position of the speaker like the one stated by Imam Ahmad Sirhindi:

    "And then you have asked concerning Mawlid. "

    Imam Rabbani replies:

    "What harm is there in reciting quran, naa’t [ song in praise of prophet] and manqabat [ song praising Awaliya Allah] in beautiful voice . WHAT IS PROPHIBITED IS to change the words/ pronunciation of Quran , to recite quran as if some one is singing a song and to clap which is not allowed even in the sessions of Poetry"

    "If Mawlid is done in this manner that no mistake in quran recitation occurs and no mistake and careless ness occur in reciting qasida, then what is the harm in it ? My friend, strict measure is to be taken to close the door [ of careless ness] , otherwise there is a famous saying that small things results in big matter"
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  3. Shihāb Dīn

    Shihāb Dīn New Member

    i hold shaykh asrar in high regard as a young, sunni scholar; however, I found the assertions forwarded in this clip to be illogical, incongruent and inconclusive. i made some passing notes whilst listening: an attempt to understand the logic and rhetoric of the clip.


    [0:06/7:51] calling for a dialogue and a discussion; a revaluation of actual, and non-actual, issues of dispute

    given that the clip is concerning the Mawlid Nabawi Sharif, and the way the rest of the clip pans out, we can safely say that a liberal dousing of equivocation* has peppered the shaykh’s words. that is, the issue of Mawlid Nabawi Sharif is, by its very nature betwixt sunnis and salafis, an issue of ‘dispute’; the only way it wouldn’t be, and both parties could arrive at some mutual ground concerning it, is if it was:

    a. a religious obligation – like the 5 daily prayers or an emphasised sunnah
    b. expressly forbidden
    evidently it is neither, so the shaykh is mistaken in suggesting that mawlid isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be, an issue of dispute. one side must relent, either the salafis adopt the practice or the sunnis abandon the practice; there is no 'radical middle way'.

    [0:20/7:51] some people are stuck on whether lights at the time of Mawlid are permissible or not

    this is a very vague allusion to either ‘our salafi brothers’ or to sunnis. If the former, their gripe isn’t with ‘lights’ but with gathering to extol the Best of Creation (SallaAllahu alaihi wa sallam); and if the latter, you can’t surmise that 10 generations of scholars who wrote on the Mawlid did so to detail whether lights are permissible or not; in fact, no sunni today reduces the grand matter of the mawlid down to the permissibility or impermissibility of lights.

    [0:30/7:51] the Saudis should use the money spent on anti-mawlid literature on anti-zionist literature instead

    then in the spirit of finding common ground with ‘our salafi brothers’, given that the mawlid –according to the shaykh – is a ‘non issue’, the argument turns on itself: sunnis who spend 10,000s on mawlid gatherings should utilise the funds for anti-zionist literature (a greater priority). by the shaykh’s logic, condemning and condoning ‘non issues’ are equally useless and divisive.

    [1:14/7:51] we had sunni scholars who opposed mawlid, like imam fakihani

    ‘scholars’; who are they? citing fakihani’s fatwa is an appeal to an irrelevant authority, presenting the idiosyncratic view of a lone, anti-mawlid scholar concerning the mawlid. we are under no obligation to accept fakihani’s fatwa, neither are we bound to acknowledge that his opinion is a valid opinion. his fatwa was based upon personal incredulity, and we say he was mistaken. and when asked, ‘who are you to say fakihani was mistaken?’ we admit we are nobodies, but imam suyuti’s refutation of fakihani is too marvellous to ignore:

    here's the salafis' ultimate compendium of anti-mawlid literature:

    there is not a single sunni's work against the mawlid included other than fakihani's.


    in fact, rather than finding common ground, why not render their masters' words upon them and make them reevaluate their principles:

    Jaza'iri on Mawlid.jpg

    [2:00/7:51] rubric [?] of belief and jurisprudence

    then lets abstain from every gathering held in masajid other than the prayers, for they would all fall under the ‘rubric’ of fiqhi non issues.

    [2:30/7:51] hold gatherings reciting madH of the Messenger of Allah (SallaAllahu alaihi wa sallam) and seek blessings through his blessed relics

    this is merely redefining the parameters of conventional definitions of the mawlid. why not just say, ‘leave your stubborn asses of leaders, and come celebrate the mawlid.’ the shaykh himself concedes that they refuse to do what he is asking of them. see, it’s not just about lights.

    [3:15/7:51] innovating poets & poetry
    firstly, who are these innovators who wrote poetry? and is their poetry in circulation amongst the masses, such that ‘our salafi brothers’ must remain on guard against them. secondly, the shaykh’s applied some more of that equivocation he opened with; what is deplorable to them is not deplorable to us. what we deem to be madH, they deem to be shirk. so is this a license for them to avoid the Burdah Sharif like the plague? for their hatred of the Burdah Sharif entails an express rejection of matters that are from the necessities of Faith and the necessities of the Ahl al-Sunnah.

    [4:50/7:51] the vast majority of sunnis commit innovations in Mawlid gatherings

    that’s a bit of a hasty generalisation. so most muslims who celebrate the blessed mawlid are in fact participating in gatherings of innovation? proof? and please, a better sample than pir x or pir y’s annual mehfil. in fact, this stinks of najdi logic; arguing from consequences:

    1. Sunnis say Mawlid is permissible and an expression of love for the Messenger of Allah (SallaAllahu alaihi wa sallam)
    2. Some pirs use these gatherings to commit Haram
    3. Haram acts are never good or permissible
    4. Therefore, the Mawlid must be impermissible

    [6:00/7:51] if we stuck to the Sunnah we wouldn’t have any fraction amongst Muslims

    which element of Mawlid gatherings, that the likes of Imam Suyuti, Imam Nawawi, Imam Abu Shamah, Imam Asqalani, Imam Haytami participated in, stray from the practices you mentioned? and why must the burden of unity always be upon the celebrators of the Mawlid; why don’t the salafis put their pens and tongues to rest, and acknowledge that it is merely a ‘non issue’?

    [6:30/7:51] ‘Mawlid’, lets not use the term

    No, lets. if it is good enough for Imam Suyuti, it is good enough for me.


    you get the idea; I’m too tired to write reams on every point. i'm convinced this was just a lapse on the part of the shaykh, and an ill advised decision to make a youtube video. we ask Allah to keep him firm on the way of the Ahl al -Sunnah.


    * Equivocation: A logical fallacy which uses the same term to mean different things within the space of a single discourse; it needn't be intentional or with ill intent.​

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2016
  4. *With such groups there can be no reconciliation until they repent, take the Shahadah in some cases, change and show the correct adab and Honour
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  5. Bananaman can choke on his samosa, how can you compare Sunni ulema to deo gandis. The enemies of Islam and shaytaan have failed on so many levels to destroy Islam so then they changed tac tic to try and remove the love of the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon Him) from the hearts. What do all these groups have in common, its always the same at the very root for them and it centers around them trying their hardest to remove the great respect due to the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him).

    Yes there is room for slight manoevre on some issues. BUT that is with those who are not putting up this facade of uniting under one banner while covering up their agenda of trying to disconnect our hearts from the Holy Prophet and trying to make people think He is an ordinary person , Maaz Allah ( Peace and Blessings be Upon Him)

    With such groups there can be no reconciliation until they repent, change and show the correct adab and Honor.
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  6. Abu Aleshba

    Abu Aleshba Active Member

    A comment responding to the youtube video below (see video comment section):

    Bananaman writes:

    "A very sensible answer. Very similar to what Mufti Taqi Usmani from the Deobandis said. I'd go further and say that even with the differences on Ilm al-Ghayb, Hazir-Nazir, Noor-Bashr, etc are not from the necessities of religion (REGARDLESS OF THEIR BEING CORRECT OR INCORRECT) so should not be made yardsticks by which individuals are expelled from being Sunni. In fact, a person can remian neutral and ignorant of these issues and still be a fully fledged Sunni, so why not adopt this approach when it may be able to unite the Sunni community on one Aqeedah?"
  7. Abu Aleshba

    Abu Aleshba Active Member

    Who cares what they* think.

    I suspect this is a case of moving in the direction of the Non-Sunnis in order to strengthen ones position in debates and disputes with the very same Non-Sunnis. We're seeing more of this. I suspect this is more a Birmingham issue with it being a hot-bed of Non-Sunnism and extremism and the more common debates/disputes.

    I hope the likes of Bradford and other cities don't get influenced similarly.

    * Non-Sunnis.
  8. Most Sunnis hold Milad Shareef all year round, it increases during Rabbi Al Awwal. Poetry is recited in these gatherings and we seek Allah's Barakah through Tabarruk at many of the Mawlid gatherings, why should we change the other things? If Suyuti, Subki, Iraqi, Haithami legislate it's ok and something good then Alhamdulillah their deduction suffices me.

    Tomorrow what else will they say- stop Tawassul and are we going to stop this as well? What then, don't visit the Shayukh who have left this world when the Holy Prophet commanded us to visit graves? Then they will tell us to stop making special trips to Medina Shareef.

    They won't stop until we follow what they follow, may Allah protect us.
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  9. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

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