Shaykh Asrar Rashid vs Abdul Rahman Hassan

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by abu Hasan, Jul 29, 2016.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the thread was titled shaykh asrar vs. some-random-mubtadiy.
    then it changed track to sunni vs. sunni.

    we have derailed that futile discussion.

    CHISHTI Well-Known Member

    ...what a reminds of when Khalil ambethwi said that knowledge of the unseen was proven for the shaitaan but not proven for the Prophet Sall Allaahu Aleyhi Wa Sallam !!! to believe it for shaitaan is tauheed but for the Prophet Sall Allaahu Aleyhi Wa Sallam it's shirk !!!!

    ...if something is shirk it's shirk and if it's tauheed it's tauheed...this innovator should be avoided like the plague..what a moron!!
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  3. Tauba, how did this guy miss Book 50 of the Great Imam Malik's Muwatta may Allah Have Mercy on His Blessed Soul
    Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Amra bint Abd ar-Rahman that Abu Bakr as-Siddiq visited A'isha while she had a complaint and a jewish woman was writing a talisman (taweez) for her. Abu Bakr said, "Write it for her from the Book of Allah." [Malik’s Al-Muwatta, book-50 ‘the evil eye’ Hadith – hadith 011]
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  4. Abu Hamza

    Abu Hamza Hanafi-Maturidi

    ARH suggests tawīz is shirk al akbar if a person believes it is able to repel an evil eye, if a person doesn't believe it is able to repel harm, but believes it is a wasīla, then it is minor shirk.

    The host interjects: 'like medicine?

    ARH: '...medicine is PROVEN through experimentation'. medicine is a wasīla because we know it works through experimentation [with the belief that Allāh táā'lā is the one who has placed the cure within it], but to hold the notion that the Messenger of Allāh [صلى الله عليه و اله و سلم] is able to aid you in this world from barzakh using the same logic is shirk?!

    perhaps it was this form of 'logic' which many Úlemā like ibn şalāh considered harām.

    [first 2-3 minutes]

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  5. kaydani1

    kaydani1 Active Member


    Tomorrow, in sha Allah.
    sunni_92 and Unbeknown like this.
  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    True. ARH was nowhere near worthy of sharing a podium with sayyidi.

    It's so clear who is the scholar from them and who's the pretender. He's blagged it the whole 5 hours.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I partially agree with those who said that the najdi school kids were not worth debating.

    They had always made it clear, even during the mawlid facebook pranks, that they belonged to the jungle and not the civilized world.

    but on the plus side, this will strengthen the the imaan of the youth who might have fallen into wasawis due to exposure the najdi literature.
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  8. the debate that dismantles the khawarij of modern day has to be that hits the foundation of their school- a closer look at their Usul/ lack of Usul in deriving verdicts on all matters where they have erred and contradicted the Salaf and Madhabs.

    This is the crux of the matter and will show them and the world that in fact they do not follow the Salaf at all.
  9. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

  10. sunni_92

    sunni_92 New Member

    Maa Sha Allah Sh Asrar has demolished the najdis; and left them dumb founded.

    Debates are obviously won on ilm; but character and mannerisms attract neutrals. Soo many neutrals who've watched this have seen the correct path and even najdis themselves have started to question their beliefs.

    You have Sh Asrar quoting Quran, Hadith with utmost respect; and in the background all you can see is 2 school kids smirking, jeering and pulling faces to their audience; You think this is a zoo!

    ARH came up to lecture and divert the attention; he didn't answer any of the questions, and that's what a debate is; You answer objections made by the other party, not go off on a lecture.

    I applaud you Sh Asrar, because all the najdis in the past used the excuse for their physical safety. The whole world can see we honour and respect other parties, and hopefully more mubtadis will come up to the front if needed.

    Respect to the brothers on our side in the debate; dawah boy chanted the slogan to cause a physical beef! You guys stayed quite calm and didn't let it erupt into a full on punch up; this is exactly what they wanted. Imagine if one person reacted, we would be soo upset and all that hard work failed; Respect to all the teams involved.
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    Unbeknown likes this.
  11. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

  12. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    It is the same Hadeeth which his papa used in Kitaab utTawheen, to belittle the status of elders, including Rasoolu-Allah
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sure brother. but i will call abdul raHman, a mubtadiy and an idiot [aHmaq/safeeh] whenever i find it necessary to emphasise his idiocy. this i learned from the books of our elders, where they describe the person they are refuting by calling him an aHmaq, safeeh or a mubtadiy or a zindiq.

    so far, i have seen only a few minutes of the mubtadiy's foolishness and arrogance, and there is so much written. i don't know whether we will end up criticising everything he says - please note that i have not watched mawlana asrar's rebuttal; and he might have already mentioned these things in his live radd - so this is just like underlining his radd, highlighting what he has said. may Allah ta'ala reward mawlana asrar for his efforts.

    most of these mubtadiyin read a few books or pamphlet here and there without thinking - and assume that the whole world is as dumb and as narrow minded as themselves. knowingly or unknowingly, they add conditions on the fly [fallacies, my man, fallacies] and think they have a sound argument. for example, the mubtadiy added a condition on the fly that jili is pronounced ONLY like that and jilani is incorrect. and the proof he provided was that dhahabi used 'jili' - as if dhahabi's opinion is naSS qaTyi!

    talk of blind following.

    at 29.40, the mubtadiy says:

    wa ash'hadu anna sayyidana wa nabiyyana muhammad
    aakhiru'l anbiya'a fi'd dunya `aSraa
    wa ajalluhum yawma'l qiyamati sha'nan wa dhikra

    وأشهد أن سيدنا ونبيا محمد
    آخر الأنبياء في الدنيا عصرا
    وأجلهم يوم القيمة شأنا وذكرا

    i bear witness that our master and our prophet muhammad [SallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam]
    the last of the prophets in this world chronologically
    and the most prominent among them on the day of judgement, prominent in greatness and in mention [of praise]​

    since the mubtadiys revel in splitting hairs, i have two questions on this snippet. technically, there is nothing wrong with this. but i felt that it sounded jarring, and therefore, this is more out of curiosity than criticism; wa billahi't tawfiq.

    first whether this construction is consistent with balaghah.
    because the first clause says: 'aakhiru'l anbiya' and a juxtaposition would mean 'awwaluhum' coming in the next line.

    if it is juxtaposition, where is the relation between being the last prophet in this world - and being prominent in the hereafter?

    - does this mean being last chronologically means lesser in prominence [al-iyadhu billah]? because he juxtaposes being "ajall in qiyamah" with being "aakhir in dunya." what gives?

    - or is it that he was doing a somersault to avoid the Hadith, mentioned in majma'a al-zawayid [#235] citing from musnad al-bazzar: "and I have made you the first of Prophets created, and the last [chronologically] to be sent forth..."

    majmzawayid, 235.jpg

    in case, ARH gets a heart attack for its being a weak hadith, abu bakr al-khallal, a Hanbali scholar also mentioned it in his kitab al-sunnah, #199:
    sunnah-khallal, 199.jpg
    just don't call it shirk - even if you don't accept it for being weak. because you know what it means.

    but let us not quibble too much, maybe such a phrase is used indeed by others. if you find it, please feel free to post.

    the second thing: did abdul RaHman Hasan commit shirk?

    he said: وأشهد أن سيدنا ونبينا محمد

    now, there is a SaHiH hadith in abu dawud [#4806] thus:

    ...we [companions] said: "you are our master [sayyiduna]"
    and he [SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam] replied: "sayyid is Allah tabaraka wa ta'ala"


    my question to abdul Rahman is: why should you do ta'wil for this? why do you have ta'wil when it suits you - and reject ta'wil when it doesn't?

    according to abdul Rahman's own rules he is a mushrik by the naSS of this hadith.

    as for myself, of course, RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is sayyiduna and we consider him as aqrab al-wasayil ila Allah.

    wAllahu ta'ala a'alam.
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
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  14. Musafir

    Musafir Active Member

  15. samir_shaikh

    samir_shaikh New Member

    [WE are the true ahl al-hadith, we are the ahl al-qur'an, we are the ahl al-Haqq, WE are the ahl al-sunnah; all others are only claimants to some of these titles.]

    سبحان الله
    الحَمْد لله
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  16. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

  17. ahmad786

    ahmad786 Active Member

    Polite note, can all members and members to be avoid personal opinions on this thread. I would genuinely like to read and benefit from the analysis of learned forum members and would appreciate not having to scour through emotional outbursts here and there.

    I'm not accusing anyone, neither am I implying its been done, I predict after this debate people will be signing up to and might pollute this thread with unecessary content.

    (You may delete/pin this post when you feel necessary)
  18. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    on Imam Tabarani:

  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    now these mubtadiyin have painted themselves in a corner. i am generally considerate with such mistakes - as it can happen to anyone. if imam bukhari and many muhaddithin transposed or mispronounced or made errors with names, it is really shallow thinking to ridicule someone for that - unless that name is one of the most well-known; thus if someone said bakhari, it is utterly ignorant and shows that the person has not read or encountered the name often - which shows he is ignorant. but uncommon names and unfamiliar names can be mistaken by the most erudite scholar.

    Allah knows best.

    in this opening 2 minutes the mubtadiy ARH also said something about being amazed, etc. which requires another post - and in sha'Allah soon.

    wa's salam.
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so i got some time and scrubbed to where the mubtadiy started out - around 30.00 where he tries to correct mawlana asrar rashid on his pronunciation of sayyidi abd al-qadir al-jilani's name. he sneers and grimaces and seethes. i have seen wahabis, but this guys is one of the most obnoxious, egotistical, arrogant wahabi i have come across. besides he is stupid and he looks that too.

    sorry gentlemen - i am not like mawlana asrar to suffer fools; if i see an idiot i can sympathise with him, but if that idiot tries to give me a story that he is the smartest man in the planet, i may laugh it off. but if a wahabi tries to do that, i won't mind showing him his silly place. so if this mubtadiy has the guts to answer - and not just make empty boasts - let him refute us in writing. wa billahi't tawfiq.

    this is why i say verbal debates are pointless - look at the faces of those mubtadiyin - kibr is oozing from their eyes; and these are not faces of people who know the meaning of taDarru'. khayr. all you have to show is swagger and expect the world to accept that you are right. al-iyadhu billah.

    the mubtadiy said at 30.42:

    just to remind you, the correct way of saying his name is abdu'l qadir al-jili. imam dhahabi mentions in his kitab siyar a'alami'n nubala'a, many people get it wrong - they do istighatha they call on to abdu'l qadir jili but in reality, his name is abdu'l qadir al-jili not abdul qadir al-jaylani.

    according to this mubtadiy, a proper name is to be pronounced exactly in one manner.

    secondly, i just went through siyar of dhahabi, and nowhere did he say:

    "many people get it wrong - they do istighatha they call on to abdu'l qadir jili but in reality, his name is abdu'l qadir al-jili not abdul qadir al-jaylani."

    dhahabi only mentioned one way of pronouncing his name which is the arabized form of jilani, and originally it is gilani with a g as in 'good' and 'great'. as classical arabic doesn't have that sound, it is approximated to j as in 'just' or k as in 'kind'. so what was originally gilani, became arabised as kilani or jilani - and further contracted by some to jili.

    siyar 20-439.jpg

    the whole point of correcting him on a proper name is just one example of the pettiness of an ornery mind.

    fact: dhahabi did not say that jili is the only way to pronounce it. he just mentioned it that way.
    fact: sayyid abdu'l qadir gilani IS the correct name, which was altered by arabs to jili.
    fact: jili, jilani, kilani are all acceptable - notwithstanding mutakabbir grimaces of juhala.

    this third fact, may be challenged by the mubtadiys. so i advise them to look up some relevant books. for example, zabidi's taj al-arus [28/261]:


    and sam'ani in his ansab - explains [2/145]

    ansabsamani 2-145.jpg

    ansabsamani 2-146.jpg

    now dear brothers, go back and watch the sneering of the mubtadiy, and you will understand why i find him so obnoxious.

    نسأل الله العافية
    Last edited: May 25, 2016

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