Shaykh Nabil of Coventry

Discussion in 'Multimedia' started by Sacred, Sep 9, 2014.

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  1. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    excellent post, good observation and understanding of ground realities, ma sha Allah

    Though there are many proper mureeds/fans in their 40s.
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my apologies for failing your high standards.

    first learn about strawman argument well. i did not say 'refute only non-Sunnis'. i said, refute only that is of common interest to muslims.

    yes, that can also be done in private. you are behaving similar to liberal wannabe who want us to behave and adapt according to western culture, and freedom without any restriction.

    you are doing the same thing: criticise openly and freely without any restraint. in other words, your idea of criticism is something i don't buy - whether you like it or displeases you. in our culture, and indeed eastern culture, it is not chivalrous to expose a person or ridicule them for their personal flaws.

    one who conceals the flaws of his brother, Allah ta'ala will conceal his flaws on judgement day.

    before going public, you should ask yourself a few questions: what is the risk of NOT saying it in public? is it necessary for us to publicise such an action? does this concern core beliefs?

    it is your own foundation.

    for what? why can't you do that in private?

    that's like shooting a rash driver and killing him, to warn rash drivers.

    yeah, apparently. but i said that it was only because it was a matter of common concern - and what i deemed is amanat al-ilm. there are a number of pictures or videos of saqib which i could criticise, but it is not my concern.

    if you say so.

    which can be done in private too. and if one has to do it in public, it can be done in a generic form. you should read hadith. many SaHabah, avoided the names of others by saying "a man said" by omitting their names to avoid embarrassing them. maSlaHah for sure, but omitting the name made no difference. and those who said or did that deed - may Allah ta'ala forgive us for the sake of SaHabah - did not have to be embarrassed.

    another assumption. if you two guys are at loggerheads, fight it out in private conversation. we had deleted the thread, and you were demanding answers, and threatening us to brand a cult. i am an anonymous coward, so i was afraid that you will expose all our flaws that you have hitherto observed but ignored, as you might have given some consideration for sunnis. so i undeleted the thread.

    so what is the best way of giving advice to anyone?

    this did not happen a few decades ago. because, you know you would have to approach a poster maker, spend some money, bargain with him for fewer number, get someone to inscribe it, get it printed and pay someone to stick it on walls or wherever to advertise that fulan-mawlana1 sat with fulan-mawlana2; it is permitted shar'an, but we advise fulan-mawlana1 to not repeat it again. because as they say, the cost didn't justify the benefit.

    when you grow older, you will realise that confrontation is the last resort; and compromises will have to be made until the point when no compromise can be made.

    again, if you say so. but i didn't criticise shami for his personal shortcoming of listening to qawwali. the thread is still available to read. i found it offensive that hadith were used to justify outright fussaq (the singers) which in my view was a form of disrespecting the sunnah.

    my skewed mind would think it to be consistent. as nabeel did not say anything, and my objective was criticism of shami's justification, i didn't criticise him. blame my standards. (frankly, i don't even remember it)

    actually, that is the problem. shaykh asrar is being dragged in for no reason or i assume, not of his own choice or approval. the point was that denigrating others; it is not a decent thing to say: 'nabeel is inferior to shami' particularly when all are friends and know each other; it breeds ill-will and may lead to hatred (al-iyadhu billah) except for those Allah ta'ala has protected. i don't understand why you have to put down someone to praise another.

    the bane of a sufi is pride. we should be humble and tawaDu' means to be able to step in another's shoes, to look at oneself and be disgusted at what we see. when we do it often, we will perhaps think before criticising others for their personal flaws.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
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  3. Sacred

    Sacred Active Member

    Yasser Rashid

    Does Shaykh Asrar agree with Pir Saqib doing what he does as a pir?

    Because that photo gave plenty of maureeds comfort that he does
     
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    this is what the wahabis have always ever done. and now the perennialists are doing the same in the west.

    if you watch closely, keller, jifry, hanson, faraz et al, their target audience is the 18-30 demographic, specially college and university students. come to think of it, it seems like a well thought out plan to hurt Islam - misguide the Muslim youth, specially those who have opportunities to take hold of the community's leadership, so that tomorrow they can be leaders and imams of misguidance and heresy and then multiply it.

    show me just 10 proper mureeds/fans of any such personality who are in the 40-60 age bracket. in fact, a good portion of that age-group doesn't even know these people exist. you'll find a lot of 30 somethings, but they are those who joined their cults in their teens and twenties in the aughties or the late 90's. by proper mureed/fan i imply someone who properly knows the manhaj that they stand for and support it. not any casual bystander who might have seen a video or two or heard something good about them in hearsay and then casually said, "he looks like a well-educated shaykh"

    about time Sunnis too woke up and smelled the coffee, specially in the west.

    then again, this task can't be taken up by the old folks, in as much as starting anew is concerned, for a lot of reasons some of which you highlighted. it can only be taken up by someone just a notch above the youth in age, and fluently well-versed in Sunniyat knowledge-wise - reasonably young ulema in the late 20's-45 age bracket, who grow WITH their target audience.

    jifry is only 44 now for example, faraz is just 39 or something, there are other such examples like suhaib webb - these people started their careers in selling Islamic reformation and/or perennialism only an year or so after 911. mark hanson's like 56 and keller's almost 60, but they too essentially only turbo charged their business of selling deen, and earning their fame, after the dot com boom and 911, and only cater to the 18-30 audience for the major part. same with tim winters who is 54 now and started his career in his 20's or 30's

    the wahabis too start their careers in Islam in their late 20's or early 30's barring some people like abdul Raheem green and some others. Madinah university afaik, doesn't even accept applications from anyone over 25.

    at least back home, DI & SDI, for all their faults at operational levels and intra-Sunni rivalries, are delivering authentic Sunniyat to the youth.
     
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  5. Yasser Rashid

    Yasser Rashid Active Member

    a few leaky buckets are being presented at the moment. Abu hassan, i expected better from you. Your arguments are flawed for the following reasons:

    1)
    the natija of your whole statement is based on the false premise that we ought to 'only' refute non Sunnis. The thing is i'm not out here to refute nabeel afzal or any other sunni for that matter. I'm mentioning 'flaws' which can 'easily' be avoided.
    It's not hard work. If we work on the foundation that: "critique is only valid against non Sunnis" then our success is clearly light years away, for many reasons.

    If you like to call my criticism "attack", then so be it. As far as i see, it is simply conscientious objections that i'm presenting. Again, the benefit gained is to try and inform, or at least warn, people of the 'piri-muridi' mindset almost ALL these guys are promoting. Simple as.

    By the same token, if abu hassan admits that he's also refuted Saqib shaami alongside understanding that he's a sunni, isn't that a contradiction?
    So does that not qualify you also as a hero with a halo?

    Of course not. I don't think so. I believe you sincerely criticized for the same reasons; namely, counter-productive charlatanism. And hence what you call "a matter of common interest of muslims". Nothing more nothing less.

    Hence, if your intention may have been to gain the halo or reach out for the stars, or even to start your own piri-muridi business or anything else at all, it would have nothing to do with the matter at hand. The fact would remain that abu hassan (or anyone else) mentioned valid points which ought to be considered for the simple fact that they provide maslaha for the din.

    2)
    Your point (i guess it was mainly, or fully, directed towards ghulam really) regarding the fact that 'ulama are not angels and may from time to time be seen in unexpected places again, is true, but doesn't apply to my argument. The perspective of what i'm saying is quite different really and we all know that. Because as i said i, for one, would still sit, talk, laugh, eat etc with saqib shami. And nabeel afzal.

    Shar'an it isnt wrong, hukman it is fine, but for the case of betterment (maslaha) it is best to be avoided.
    On that note, Saqib shami's family is close to mine. But i cant recall the last time we visited them. Except in a case of exigency of course, such as a funeral or something of that nature.

    3)
    I do agree with you with on the somewhat cynical stance that i took regarding not calling nabeel a shaykh, and i must admit we should if we want what im begging for. It is a matter of motivating those who are willing to take up the no doubt courageous task of representing the din. So from now on i will call him shaykh, provided that he stops entertaining pirs like shami. Otherwise the turmoil and malaawatt that im so against will be a continuous cycle no doubt.

    4)
    I think your standards for criticism are somewhat jumbled in that you mention how and why we ought to only criticize when someone makes or says a heretical statement in a speech or book, and not mention personal shortcomings. But the truth is you yourself refuted shami and there is nabeel at an event with the guy. The point is i clearly mentioned my criticism isnt even related to hukm yet. It's related to unwise platforms due to unwise pirs and therefore unwise perception. Perception matters a great deal when a simple minded college student wants to know which path to follow. To such a layperson dalils dont even mean much at the beginning stages of learning alif baa...

    5)
    Whether Asrars brother bigs him up, it may sound silly, but not so silly if i'm bigging him up due to the fact that he's teaching that which will inevitably counter all this malarkey.
    If i'm attempting to compare levels of knowledge thereby then no doubt i'm being stupid. Rather, i'm giving preference to Shaykh Asrar for the simple fact that he learned and began to part that knowledge in the traditional way of the 'Ulama. That's all. I didn't mention that he's better looking or sounds better or has beautiful hand writing or any other nonsensical trivial attribute. That's superficial. That's exactly what we aim to counter.

    6)
    Ghulam i personally believe a mawlid julus is extremely unwise if they all begin to chant "haq farid ya farid" from the top of their lungs in the rain. And like i said (i don't know if you're dim or you like to repeat things) sitting, talking and even playing golf with shami is fine, but doing various religious gatherings with him is problematic. I repeat he is not an innovator, but due to his manhaj it's best to refrain from sharing the stage with him and his ilk.

    7)
    Abu Hassan is right again about the lack of wisdom on my part for expecting it to happen over night. But you're wrong for asserting change of the older generation is implied. I'm talking about young shaykhs who speak english. Who if we don't criticize now the reapeated unwanted cycle that we're all against will of course repeat itself.

    8)
    The fact that indo-pak has great scholars and proper madrasa system in place countering innovations even among sunnis who allow for women to sing naats in public isnt much of an issue, because the counter balance is in place and very effective. In England, a more dangerous country full of kufr we don't have that and in time still wont have it if fake pir and 'ilm promotion is in motion.

    9)
    As for the most important point in this whole discussion about washing dirty laundry in private, again you're very right, but only if these videos weren't publicized as they clearly are, to begin with. Therefore, up until they're taken down and fake pir connection comes to an end then i hope my pessimism also diminishes in time inshaAllah.

    Amin! Bi jah al nabiyy al amin!

    sallAllah 'alayhi wa sallam!!
     
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  6. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Sayyiduna U'mar (radiyAllahu a'nhu) said:

    المتغافل سيد قومه

    I think Mawardi's book 'Adab alDunya walDin' has some good quotes regarding some of what is being discussed.

     
  7. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Agreed

    The ironic thing Ch Yasir was promoting weird characters to be included in his Majlis al Ulama here http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/shaykh-nazim-has-passed.11570/

    People who had been praising Manzur Numani and his rubbish only last year and another Sufi Muqaddam who thinks Nuh Keller is right yet attacks Sunnis because he sees them as being 'yardies'!

    Like Sakti said on the Bawa Nazim thread the west is crying out for someone like Muhaddith Sardar Ahmad Qadri (rahmatullah alayh) or Hafiz e Millat Mawlana Abdul Aziz (rahmatullah alayh)
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ok. i didn't get that. and yes, i too second that. sunnis have to get together and try to draft a common programme, make a common stand - without allowing personal shortcomings to stand in between - and make a fresh attempt to weed out false sufis and anti-shariah practices.

    besides, it is best to wash dirty laundry in private.
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is like running into a battle without a plan or sufficient training.

    in my city back home, many of the senior ulama (seniors in public standing, and seniors in age) can be criticised for dozens of things. i could take each of them and give a list of mistakes the commit in pronunciation, reasoning, analogies, citations etc. but they are staunch and traditional sunnis.

    what would my public invective serve other than making me appear smarter and the others look dumb? besides, the common public is already disenchanted and the remaining sunnis need an excuse to desert them altogether. also, any in-your-face opposition will make the older sunnis suspect our motives and keep away from us fearing a 'new fitna' or smear us rebels. our strategy has been to ignore personal flaws of these senior scholars and educate the younger generation.

    it won't happen overnight.

    it takes time to teach them basics of aqidah, and to amend the numerous bid'ah and wrong practices that have accumulated partly due to apathy, partly due to poor teachers and partly due to outdated methods - as masjid after traditional masjid is taken away by devbandis and sulH kulli people.

    it is my belief - whether right or wrong - that it is pointless and a waste of time to try fixing the older generation. most won't change, and years of association with one-another leads them to be sympathetic to one another. the enthusiasm to start fresh comes in the new generation. take them, nurture them and guide them - in a few years time, these kids will be adults and with the right mentoring, they will help you bring back the caravan on track.

    i may be an idealist or a dreamer; i am no expert and my personal shortcomings (in knowledge, word or deed) should not be held against me. i am a sunni and treat me like your brother. do not hang me on the pillory for my weaknesses as long as they do not contradict the established aqidah of ahl e sunnat.

    may Allah ta'ala forgive us.
    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  10. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    I am for them sitting together and for Sunnis working together. Ch Yasir knows that as I have discussed this with him in person.

    Ch Yasir was attacking Mawlana Nabeel for 'Because I'm sure after the launch of Coventry Sunni Movement he has been seen in "unwise" places such as saqib shamis march among other things'

    A Mawlid julus is not a 'unwise' place

    Thus I mentioned Maulvi Asrar also sitting with Mawlana Saqib and it is only fair to apply the same rule for Maulvi Sahib. I was playing a demonstration marshal as Ch Yasir was wrong for attacking Mawlana Nabeel and Mawlana Saqib
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ok i have undeleted it.

    but, yasser will have to explain what benefit he gains by attacking fellow-sunnis for their flaws, other than being a hero with a halo.
    now, yes, i have refuted saqib shami, but i understand he is a sunni; his encouragement of singing/dancing claiming to prove it from hadith, in this day and age of fitna, made me to respond in that manner, as i thought it was a matter of common interest of muslims.

    ghulam likes the role of agent provocateur, he is been doing here for quite some time; shaykh asrar and shaykh monawwar are together with saqib shami. so what is the harm in it? i would like to know the fiqhi ruling: is it Haram to talk to him, eat with him, or even seen laughing in his company? let alone sitting in the blessed courtyard of madinah munawwarah? go ahead, tell us whether it is kufr, nifaq or even fisq to sit with another muslim, even if he is a corrupt one.

    you guys ask yourselves if you are the finest examples of following sunnah, and unblemished; if you do not claim that, then if shaykh asrar or shaykh monawwar sit with you, they should be scorned in the same manner when they sat with saqib shami. is the one who commits something openly (like shortening the beard) any worse than the one who commits transgressions in private?

    you guys seem to have lost your perspective. nobody is ma'Sum amongst us. it is possible for all of us to commit sins (may Allah ta'ala forgive us and protect us) or slip from the ideal position that one should be, but you should criticise others only when it is of common concern to sunni muslims, or when they contradict established sunni aqidah.

    -----
    if i were to meet nabeel or saqib shami and be cordial with him, sit with him and dine with him, what is your problem? you tell me why i should stay away from him.
    yes, how 'learned' enough should be 'learned' to be called shaykh is a moot point. personally, i don't mind shall silly things. long ago, when i was quite young, i once gave a lift to a senior imam of a masjid in our city (the shaykh was quite old) and he said "thank you mawlana" while getting off. and i replied: "hazrat, i am no mawlana; i am just an ordinary guy." he smiled and said: "if you are no mawlana, then may Allah ta'ala make you a mawlana".

    so if shaykh nabeel is not a shaykh, then may Allah ta'ala make him a shaykh. why should shaykh yasser fret over such a silly thing? if not let us start a registry of "certified shaykhs" - we can make a lot of money, applicants send in their qualifications and etc, we can award them a wooden plaque.

    that won't happen by merely attacking others openly disparaging others for their personal shortcomings. yes, if someone is a public speaker, who makes heretical statements in public - whether talk or books - he should be criticised as we have been doing on this forum.

    =====
    PAQS or zahid shah sahib or his son - we refute them for their deviance, unfortunately and sadly, for choosing a path other than that of their blessed forefathers - including thousands of great sunni-sayyid ulama. we still pray for them to come back to the standard path; it is the way of sayyids to concede even when they are in the right; let alone accept and revert when patently in the wrong.

    regrettably, some of them moved further from heresy of tafdil/abusing Sahabah to supporting an outright zindiq like tahir padri.

    the same with ali jifry - he talks like tahir and has no restraint on his antics alongside mark hanson, who protests that he is not a perennialist but does not refute it; as if refutation and warning the ummah of such dangers is somebody else's business. apart from other assorted heretical actions/words of mark/hamzah, debated here.

    the same with yaqubi sahib, who maintains his silence on hamza.

    then there is the deceased nazim qubrusi - with his weird cult and strange proclamations; and gfhaddad's silence - or even complicity - in perpetuating strange ideas.

    and there is habib umar, who is silent on all this - and i haven't seen something heretical he has actually said, but his hobnobbing with tablighi folks and his dismissing our objection to devbandis as a 'minor disagreement between ulama' is what makes me stay away from him.

    ======
    if someone else says that, it would be fine. but coming from his own brother, it looks embarrassing. (the point is denigrating others is not a good thing)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
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  12. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    I think this is the gist of your comment and I probably everybody on here will agree with you on that.
    But how to achieve this goal? Our people are literally mentally enslaved by these pirs.
    ---
    Mawlana Saqib is a learned person, but he should not have got into this piri-mureedi business.
    And I agree his following behaves very much like a cult.
     
  13. Yasser Rashid

    Yasser Rashid Active Member

    You're right about pir Saab attending nabeels event. I guess I got it mixed up because apparently the pir hijacked nabeels event with all his cult followers. And he even grants nabeel the cloak of power. So for that reason I guess I must've thought nabeel attended his event. Either way nabeel isn't learned enough to be called shaykh and neither are many other bods. Sunni standards are still very low at the moment and we need to promote ulum and by fake pir gatherings granting "special" gifts to one another.

    We need Hadith durus like those of sayyid Muhammad bin alawi Maliki and academics and great writers like ghulam rasul saeedi Saab and ashraf jalali Saab among others.

    Pirs need to be replaced with cerebral minds and people who are into books and readership. So we may comfortably counter atheism/najdism/tafdilism/ nihilism/ and every other ism.

    Pirs and pirhood is far more ineffective than anything at the moment. We must only entertain foreigners if they come to do a proper lecture on something really needed.

    We need 3/4 days' seminars lasting 6/7 hours each day just on 1 topic.

    That's what we need more than anything right now.

    Like I said shaykh Asrar chilling or being happy with the fella isn't wrong in and of itself. Nabeel also has that right. The difference is nabeel is obviously inferior to shami. Whereas shaykh Asrar isn't. He'll take em both to the cleaners
     
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  14. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Shaykh Asrar has great Hub in his eyes for others, ma sha Allah
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2014
  15. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Yasir there were pictures of Maulvi Asrar with Pir Saqib in different places during the recent Umrah in Ramzan Sharif on Facebook. If you can find the photos and post them here you can see Maulvi is enjoying the company and was chilling with Pir Sahib.

    Plus you have your facts mixed up Pir Saqib attended the Milad Sharif organised by Mawlana Nabeel in Coventry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  16. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    Shah Jee lookin' very happy
     
  17. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Yasir too naxt laval post.

    Shah Jee - Potha people are too academic for the rest of us Dadyalis
     
  18. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

  19. Yasser Rashid

    Yasser Rashid Active Member

    1)
    First of all, when shaykh Asrar done that talk in ghamkol for zinda pir I did tell him it'll tarnish his rep and make him out to be a deceiver to the masses.

    Therefore, I suppose, he made his students (or whoever) take down all such (apparently) jahil Paki linked videos of YouTube.
    So he took good advice unlike the rest.

    2)
    Besides, when I 'suspected' a guy to be shaykh Asrar in sultan Bahu milad some 2 years ago I was going to expose him on sunniport by mentioning it. Then I discovered it wasn't shaykh Asrar, it was some other dude who looked like him from far.

    3)
    Shami sitting with Asrar in Umra is a clear case of shaykh munawwar and shami chilling with him rather than vice versa. We can make that out from all those pics.

    Nabeel went out his way to take part in shamis gathering. That's a whole different ball game.

    4)
    Also, the last time I checked, Sh Asrar is not doing a talk with shami as was supposed. And I guess that's wise of Asrar to not do so. Again he takes advice where it's needed. Which is a sign of success. InshaAllah

    5)
    Asrar couldn't tell shami to trap even if he wanted to, because he's still a Sunni; it's not as though he's an innovator as such. I don't think so anyway. But I believe his manhaj and methodology is counterproductive. Again, that doesn't mean I wouldn't meet him nicely or eat at his yard or sit with him and try and even advise him on his downfall. And I'm sure that's what shaykh Asrar is doing in Umra also. I'm sure he didn't go out his way to meet him or be with him as nabeel did do.

    6)
    When he does start to display double standards like the rest of these "Shaykhs" trust me ill be the first to mention it.

    May Allah protect him and others like him who don't have double standards!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  20. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Yasir what about yardies like Asrar Rashid?

    If you are going to attack Mawlana Nabeel for being at 'unwise' places with Mawlana Saqib

    What about Maulvi Asrar with Mawlana Saqib outside the Green Dome?

    The clowns you wanted in your Majlis al Ulama are they better than these 'yardies'?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014

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