sidi and the Lupine Address.

Discussion in 'Language Notes' started by Wadood, May 5, 2008.

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  1. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I just heard Habib 'Ali use the word "laish" in the Arabian Gulf Arabic instead of limada

    So, Habib 'Ali is now speaking the in the Gulf Arabic too when he comes here.
  2. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    chidii and chadab is not only of the UAE, but also of Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, al-aHsaa and 'Iraq.

    It is the common arab tongue of the Persian/Arabian Gulf region. In the UAE it is assimilated due to the vast Sunni Persian/Sunni Arab Iranian population that settled there before the avalanche of rafiDi iranians came to Dubai recently.

    I do not know about 'Oman. Perhaps someone can tell me what is used there. Do the Baluch use the same "chidi"

    When I go to Kuwait/Qatar or Bahrain, I use chidi naturally. Its on my tongue almost, I really love saying it.
  3. over my head

    :confused: pardon me abu hasan but I don't get you..
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    more hints that there couldn't be two of them.

  5. my gentl sire naqshbandijamaati,

    siibawayh (the apple-wallah? - any farsi speakers explain the -wayh rahuwayH etc); was an a'jamii, as u'll recall so no irony there.

    As it happens the real irony is that though the a'ajim were the cause for the rapid deterioration of Arabic in the first two centuries post hijrah; it is the a'ajim who are now upholding and mastering Arabic as a spoken natural language. The scoffs of the ignoramus arabs are of meagre/qitmiir consequence.

    the ulamaa's indefatigable efforts in preserving correct Arabic as a language can never be in vain nor consigned to sisyphean 'junoon' outpourings to be outshon by uae/lubnaani khiraa'ah of a patois! (btw 'khira..' a sensible word - occurring in Salman's conversation with a jewish person).

    Arabic has a tawfiiqii standard so most other languages aren't comprabl in terms of language change etc. English for example has various standard englishes. yes these change. e.g. 'terrific' used to be the adjective of 'terror' but not anymore.

    It's mindboggling that I could communicate with sumwun 1500 years ago yet I couldn't communicate with shakespeare, 400 years ago whose english is utterly different to mine.

    Arabic does not change (except in new word coinage based on roots or synthetics) e.g. 'miryaa' for tv. It is the people who changed. In fact Arabic must not and cannot change with them - unlike English or French or Urdu. Because revelation guarantees preservation. Sure there are special rules for tajweed but arabic as a functional language must remain arabic. if it changes it ceases to be Arabic, as defined by the Qur'an - which is sent in the language of its original people.

    the changed/disfigured 'arabic' is used by some people for writing as well: Maltese, to cite an example. They're honest enough to call it 'maltese' rather than 'arabic'. tho it's 'arabic' as much as misri is.


    I'm an English teacher, hence the vocabulary.

    I saw 'thunderbirds' once: lady penelope and parker were speaking pure ghaalibian urdu - as if they'd just come off the boat from lucknow (is this
    lakh na'i - a thousand barbers?). which urdu is better - Delhi ( 'Dahlii' originally: why were the letters transposed? ) or lukhnawi urdu?
    I tried to make my urdu less ghulabi via William St Clair Tisdall's 'Hindustani grammer (sic) and conversation' but didn't get far.
  6. medni

    medni Active Member

    the khalifa of sayyidee wa murshidee alahazrat azeemulbarakat alaihir rahmah
    molana ziauddin madani rahmatullai alaih told molana ihsanul haq, that once we were in egypt where there was an ijtima of :faazil tareen ulema" we read a qaseedah in arabic written by alahazrat azeemulbarakat to which the arab and egyptian scholars said, this has been written by some "faseeh ulisaan arbi nasal alime deen" when we told them whom this qaseedah had been written by, they "hairat kay samunder mein doob gaye ke woh ajmi ho kar arbi mein itnay maahir hain"

    ولا ادرئ وسوف اخال ادري اقوم ال نجد ام نساء
  7. btw sidis aH and kaN,

    i just find it a delicious irony that here we are, a bunch of 'ajamis, arguing over the nuances of 'arabic!!! talk of being more Catholic than the Pope!
  8. btw i admire your vocab in english--good to come across a fellow muslim who doesn't have the vocab of tupac shakur or biggy! wassup! :D

    i take it you read a lot?
  9. my leige al-naqiibah,

    outside of correct reading of the koran and correct recitation within salah., why is it so important for a language to remain 'pure' or unchanged? by its very nature language is sure to change with time--and arabic is no different.[koranic arabic excluded but do u expect people to speak in day-to-day situations as if reading the qur'aan? how far will you take this junoon?! should they also take into consideration the rules for breath control and length of vowels when speaking too?!]

    i sympathise with you to an extent as i am too a bit of a traditionalist/purist when it comes to my own languages [panjabi, urdu]. i wish people still spoke urdu like they do in imtiaz ali's play 'anarkali' but alas it is a futile wish--for time waits for no man and Time will have its fancy...
    yes, some people should exist who know classical arabic but we already have those in the body of the ulama.
  10. shuu bidddii?

    Well thanks for the references, which just goes to show
    that the nuHaah consider the meaning of 'siidii' to be my wolf.

    This seems to be an inference that doesn't quite follow.

    As is well known, the dictionary writers, grammarians and the scions of
    Arabiyyah frequently use the word 'aamiyyah' to indicate and point out the 'luHuun' - solecisms from correct Arabic usage. Acknowledgment doesn't mean sanction or validity. From what I know 'aamah' means non-specialists, the common folk. Arabiyyah is not learnt from the 'aammah anymore.

    These days, the arabs call the language they speak Arabic. yet they call the language of the Qur'an, Sunnah, adab 'fuSHa'. Isn't this misleading and wrong?

    The quran calls the language of the people it was sent to "haadhaa qur'aan 'arabiyy'. Arabic not 'fuSHaa'. why do they always say fuSHa when the qur'an says 'arabic' ???

    I therefore feel we should call it 'arabic' too -not 'fuSHaa' the ordinary everyday language of Abu Bakr or wAHshi or Yazeed b Abi Sufyaan or Aisha b TalHa (Raa) is Arabic. That is the criterion, the touchstone by which any language claiming to be Arabic must be measured.

    the so called 'Arabic' of the uae or ksa, hkj or jamaahiir liibyah is thoroughly ugly. how they have the sheer gall to call their dr frankenstein's monster 'Arabic' is beyond me. Calling it 'fuShaa' is just a ruse of further distancing it from people. sneaky or what?! There was an interesting book I saw in a jordanian university library: taHwiid al-'arabiyyah - the judaisation of Arabic. this is precisely what's happenin those who want to make the people the 'aamah sources of Arabic (e.g xtian arabs, or the likes of qaasim amiin etc)rather than the 'ulamaa' .

    'Monoculturalism' - again I feel this General Franco type monolinguislism is hardly what I'm calling for: there is to be sure wide variety within the Arabiyya tradition between the various canonical traditions. again the nuHaah indicate this after words or sentences saying "this is 'lughah'" and 'word x is lughah with tribe x' (where 'lughah' means 'lahjah' not 'lisaan')

    nowadays for instance: mobile/cellphone, we have 'jawwaal' or 'naqqaal' or 'khalawiyy' or (my favorit) 'maHmool'. or for telivision choose between miryaa' or mirnaah. but do make sure you flush 'telivizhyawn' down the loo.

    Thanks I'll pore over the taaj..zabidi, raazi, ct onions, johnson, webster, wehr, cowan... great lexicographers. how did they accomplish such brobdingnagian feats?

    (Any words on the adhaan phrases?)
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    lisan al-arab says:
    as-siid is a lion or a wolf; originally it was siwd, but waw was transposed to yaa because of its being stopped [sakin] after a kasrah; the plural is seedaan.
    further in the same lisan al-arab:
    as-siid among commonfolk is a depreciated form of the word as-sayyid
    السِّيْد الأسد والذئْب أصله سِوْد فقلبت الواو ياء لوقوعها ساكنة بعد كسرةٍ ج سِيْدان
    <table dir="rtl" align="right" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="2"><tbody><tr><td width="50%">
    </td><td width="0%">
    </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    <sindex stype="SZ" svalue="مداخل معجمية">والسِّيْد</sindex> أيضا عند العامة تخفيف السيّد

    acknowledged by nuHat, i think, it is permissible for us plebians to use sidi.

    in al-qamus, al-fayruzabadi says that
    as-siid is a lion.
    and in its sharH, taj al-arus az-zabidi mentions the argument about the original meaning of as-siid. [according to fayruzabadi] as-siid was originally meant to describe a 'lion', but then it was extended to mean a 'wolf'. however, al-jawhari in as-SiHaH said contrary to that: as-siid was originally described as a 'wolf'.

    check out taj al-arus under the entry siin-waw-daal for a great expansion of thought and mind. you will then perhaps forgive us, sidi.​
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    indeedy, yes. it is grossly inhumane to demand a monoculture.

    if you are fortunate, and i pray that you are; inshaAllah, every one of us, inshaAllah, and we ask Allah for that - all of us will speak arabic, the fuS'Haa variety in jannah. until then, you will have to bear with us plebians. perhaps, you may want to buy a pair of bose noise cancelling headphones to preserve your sanity. they are selling it here.

    the only exception where everybody is required to learn pronouncing arabic letters [makharij al-Huruf] is while reciting the qur'an; and usually qaris pronounces it properly when reciting the qur'an.

    take the egyptian common speech - rapid fire and the jeems are all gaas and the qaafs are aas - `ala albee. [yes, the same infamous glottal stop of the cockney.] but when it comes to recitation, they are usually good.

    you can add the uae to your hit list: they convert the kaaf to chaa. so kadhaa [like this] become chidi and kadh'dhab becomes chad'hab. the jeem like the hebrew is said yaa; so rijl becomes riyl and rajul becomes rayyal. [the shaamis don't like it, ya zalameh].

    but cap'n, you will blow your top if you look at the 'arabic' of the locals in the emirates.

    bannad baab is 'close the door.' [from band meaning 'close' in urdu] chayykt? is 'did you check?' [the taSrif of the english 'check', other forms being chakkeyt, chayyakna]
    beyzaat is 'money' [from paisey in urdu for currency; and the transformed p to b.]
    yaayiy is 'he is coming' [from jaayiy]
    maal ana is 'mine' maal inte is 'yours'; so, sayyarah maal ana is 'my car'.
    maalak is 'yours' and maali is mine.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  13. +++++++++++++
  14. arabic rules

    yes ta loads for your perpetually welcomed remarks.

    now far be it from me to patronise any....

    believe it or not, the last thing I want do is to come across
    as some salafii goebbels (I have in mind 'salafii' with a Saad not a 'siin' look it up - the word is apter, methinks).
    certainly I can't imagine ramming the alfiyyah down the pharynges of plebeians (that includes yours truly)..

    but is it really fascistic, ladies and gentleman (and naqshbandijamaati) to ask people learn the right pronunciations of Arabic letters?

    Ibadah is something I'd like to do to colorado beetles
    (were I an idaho potato farmer) but 'Ibaadah (with an 'ain) is something that colorado beetle and myself would like to do to our khaaliq.

    Siidii - still, and ther's no getting away from it,
    means 'my wolf' in proper Arabic.
    the Arabs, may I boldly say, by and large are not the sources of Arabic any longer- there is no native speaker of arabic: they have lost it, they ill use it, they mock it.

    Rather, yaa u-lil shahaamah, the 'Ulamaa r the ones
    to be consulted those who hav ingested the alfiyyah etc (without indigestion) -be they arab or a'jam - but if you ask any Arab what 'those two cars' is in good arabic: it becomes a sudatory question- flummoxation accompanied by great globules of perspiration should ensue.

    I remember an erstwhile Arabic teacher of mine who kept telling me off for saying 'ee' for 'yes' (as in lancashire dialect: 'ee, by Gum!' instead of 'na'am'. llittl did he realise that 'ee' as yes occurs in the quran -soorah 10.

    true shortening would make sayyidii 'sayyii' not siidii. just like the truncating of SaaHib to SaaH - as in 'kayfa anta yaa SaaH' (roughly: 'how's it hangin, mate?').

    isn't it 'Mein Bruder' - no 'e' on mein' I understand only males are fit to be brethren. or perhaps it was 'Meine Schwester' there.

    It's true there's a lot of racialism. subcontinentals decry racialism but next thing you know is that they're of proud Aryan caste/stock..

    now there's an occasion for sieg-heiling -'alaysa kadhaalik ya SaaH?!

    yes I'd like to know about the phrase that was dropt in the adhaan but still is used in the tashayyu adhaan despite reports of the companions still using it.

    sorry about the is-haab - the prolixity, p'rhaps you'll mercifully indulge.


    kunh al-naqiibah
  15. Yasir Khan

    Yasir Khan New Member

    Sidi is used widely among the North African and Shaam scholars. While it is slang for Sayyidi, people who utter it do not mean that intention using it.
    In fact, the use of "Sidi" is accepted from a "URF" standpoint. Urf points to the habitual use and the habitual meaning of a word.
    One ought to keep this in mind, as well.
    So I don't see a need for preplexing at all. And Allah knows best.
  16. brother Ahle Sunnah, I only wrote that to show the was deliberate provocation. The KKK and all racists are complete morons. And racism is unislamic although muslims are often racist!
  17. Probably what the grand wizard of the kkk might say :)

    easy soldier!
  18. About 'sidi'.

    Yes, the correct form is sayyidi for 'my lord' but why begrudge changes in pronunciation. AS you know language changes slightly in pronunciation after around 50 km or so, local variations/dialects so why complain when the Maghribites --who lie many thousands of km away from the Hijaz-use Sidi instead of Sayyidi? Actually don't they also shorten it to Sid aswell? Like a woman may shout out to her lover 'Ya Sid!' instead of Ya Sayyidi?
    Shortening (and corruption) of words when speaking is common in every language: the persians corrupt and shorten 'my house' -- khaneh-am -- to 'khoonam' when speaking whereas khoonam actually means 'my blood!'. Unless they are Jamaican Iranians and actually are calling each other 'blud!' (a commonly heard phrase amongst 3rd gen British-Asian Muslims when talking to each other' as a greeting, 'How you doing blud?' )
  19. brother Koon al-Nigga-boi..oh, sorry us Westernised-desis cannot pronounce transliterated Arabic properly...but isn't that how you pronounce your name?

    OK, silliness aside [that was just to drive home a point] I have actually learnt a lot from your posts about technical aspects of Arabic pronunciation but surely you are being little too nitpicky? I bet 99% of Arabs wouldn't adhere to the rules as strictly as you insist upon!

    I think, meine bruder (al-Seig al-Heil!), that language is primarily about communication. Isn't it?

    Please don't be such an assinine.

    ma salama'
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    brother, i don't think we should be that condescending. why don't you start a movement or organization to disabuse them?

    the reason i pointed out a spelling mistake in your post was to illustrate this, but you seem to have missed the quip. it is unfair to expect common folk to be experts in arabic. it is also unfair and scaringly salafi-like to imagine that the world is homogenous and every man is born with an innate ability to learn arabic nuances and articulate well - and that he should. do you expect every muslim to have read ibn hisham's commentary on alfiyah ibn malik?

    give some space for your muslim brothers, brother.

    i don't mean that you should not correct people in their tajwid; by all means, do - only, just don't be a language nazi. would you show anger and mock at a person if he stutters?

    even in reciting the qur'an, fuqaha make a great allowance for the letter Daad because of its non-existence among non-arabs. so should you condemn those who cannot pronounce it, in spite of trying very hard?

    i think you seem to forget (that is if you knew it in the first place) that arabic is not the first language of indian/pakistani/bangladeshi muslims. and in their languages - including urdu being closest to arabic - Haa, the....
    just a minute, let me look up its nomenclature....
    pharyngeal fricative, is converted more moment...glottal fricative haa.

    imagine a young man pining in love who keeps lamenting about his muhabbat and his mahboob - and a linguist passes by enraged on his inability to pronounce a pharyngeal fricative: "it is muHabbat, you fool a pharyngeal fricative! and she is your maHboobah. NOT mahboob with a glottal fricative." or our modern sibawiyh tells an oppressed syrian that it is not zulum he bemoans but rather DHulm.

    however, the phrase 'laa hawla wa laa quwwata..' which is common in the subcontinent is meaningless unless the exception is added: '..illa billah'. and kunh ken blast the arabs now for saying "laa Hawli'llah". i am with you conh.

    i will be satisfied with imams who can pronounce the qur'an properly. the rest is optional - including mu'adh'dhins

    i apologize in advance for my ignorance, but don't you think it ought to be khayr with a khaa as in a voiceless velar fricative and not a pharyngeal fricative?

    is it an sincere enquiry* or a quiz?**

    * as in 'can anyone please enlighten me'
    ** as in: 'shall i enlighten you with my knowledge?'

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