so-called ashrafi alims at Minhaj e Tahiri Mumbai (thread started by minhaji minion)

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Mar 14, 2012.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    how do you define an aalim?

    though the following features are also present in true ulama, unfortunately many people in our times are considered scholars/ulama for a spark or two of the following:

    1. wearing fashionable clothes with bisht and thawb etc.

    2. having a long beard and impressive `imamah. (an azhari or a shami style looks even more profound these days)

    3. a person who makes speeches.

    4. a person has a certificate of passing from a religious school.

    5. a person is known to be a scholar.

    6. being seen on a stage with some famous personality.

    it is knowledge that makes one a scholar. obviously, there are different levels of scholars and the lowest rung of the scholarship ladder is faithful reporting.

    that is, a person should faithfully and accurately report from the opinions of previous scholars. whether he agrees or not is a different matter, but as far as reporting is concerned, it has to be accurate. even if the opinion is stated in the reporter's own words, the essence and the meaning of the cited opinion should not change.

    in our times, it is quite easy to cross-check a speaker's statements, by the proliferation of books. some people generalise here that merely reading books do not make you a scholar, and traditional scholarship has always been through training. we do not disagree, but regardless of training, cited text doesn't change. indeed, a teacher brings in a wealth of information to the cited text from his knowledge and experience (which we may not have when reading without a teacher,) but the cited text can be verified by anyone with average reading and comprehension skills.

    in other words: if you read on your own, you may understand the obvious and the apparent. a smart student will correlate with any knowledge he may already have and generate a few more meanings. a teacher explains the complete context and many more meanings (depending on his talent, knowledge, erudition and experience).

    if a 'scholar' deviates from the citation by either snipping it off, or citing partially, or citing out of context etc. most of such issues can easily be verified. of course, certain matters will always be beyond the reach of a common student or even a trained scholar. but generally, texts and citations can be verified and such examination does not require outstanding skills or exceptional talent. however, it does require some skill and some level of knowledge to verify the assertion or a comment/opinion of a speaker.

    may Allah ta'ala reward our elders for their efforts and the immense favour they did upon us, by explaining texts and writing extensive commentaries on practically every subject/text that is necessary. it is indeed surprising, when pipsqueaks of our time dismiss masters of previous centuries as if they were schoolchildren.

    coming back to the main issue of evaluating scholars - we must go back to the practice of our elders. we should question every claim that is new and not established tradition. the hamza yusufs and tahir jhangvis of our time prey on the gap between sunnis and salafis. that is, an ordinary man should listen to qualified scholarship and not derive rulings on his own, unlike salafis who encourage all and sundry to take it from qur'an and sunnah. this does not mean that we accept contemporaries without questioning them. in a way, i agree with tahir when he declared that 'we don't listen to any thekedar'. the same question needs to be asked about tahir and all the maulvis who support them. are they thekedar?

    we can easily examine tahir's actions according to all the names he named in that speech. isn't it hypocrisy to use big names and contradict them in serious and fundamental issues?

    my teacher used to say that a person who tries to collect convenient rulings from various scholars that suit his fancy-du-jour is like a stray dog that hangs around a place where there is a feast. sometimes here and sometimes there - always looking for tasty morsels wherever it can find.

    if people read the biographies of great men, they would easily see the fraud of religious conmen in our age.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  2. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

    I am not a Muqallid of Sunniport and its not mandatory on me to follow your fatwa....
    And ,If there are so many Permutations and combinations involved like mentioned above then I think there is a lot of ground work that your team or whoever wants to take ownership of this task has to do and its too early to reach to a final conclusion...
    Becuase the Members of Takfiri Lobby had done a lot of work before TQ could start his lectures here and did all they could to create mass
    public awareness like distributing lakhs of pamphlets,submitting memorandums to ministers to prevent the function,having press reports published about the controversies,making live a website which I think everyone here knows,approaching Ulema with their fatwas,having Ijtemat to instigate people.
    And its highly difficult to accept that Ulema/Muftis who supported him were unaware of controversies around him....
    So even after that if they came and supported him ,then I think your team or whoever wants t ocome forward should take the responsibility of 'Detoxification' process now.
    I think its now your turn to approach those Ulema once again ,enlighten them about your research and ask them to do Rujoo or make Public Tauba of their stand of supporting TQ...
    I think atleast these big names should be approcahed as they are well known faces and have massive following:
    1. Mufti Zialluah Naqshbandi,Hyderabad
    2.Jamia Nizamia Ulema
    3. Peer Amin Ul Hasanat
    4. Allama Mukhtar Shah Naeemi
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the general principle is right - you cannot rule someone kafir on the basis of a book by an anonymous author. but in this case, it is a fallacy of generalisation. the issue is not about one book; it is about fundamental principles of faith.

    if you read the book minaji fata morgana, you will see that the anonymous author does not issue any fatwa. he simply examines tahir's claims and encourages you to consider these facts and use the proforma to get a fatwa from your local alim. if you are sincere, you will ask a mufti you trust to answer those questions, instead of trying to put a spin on tahir's antics and pointedly ignoring questions.

    eventually, you are responsible for your own actions. remember that the excuse: 'such and such group of scholars praised him,' will not hold water on judgement day. on that day, no one can present feeble excuses and get away with deceptions. so far, you have directly avoided the objections on tahir's actions and the only defence you have is: 'such and such a maulvi/pir praises him.'

    and i repeat that there are two possibilities:

    1) it is possible that maulvi zayd or pir amr is not aware of tahir's antics, his actions and statements. such ulama/mashayikh are exempt as they have husn zann of a charlatan who cleverly uses the words (tawassul etc) to impress them.

    2) but if they support and respect him after knowing those statements of kufr, they are together with him and we will not hesitate to distance from them. bal'am ba'ura was a greater scholar than these midgets, but the qur'an describes him as a dog.

    at this point, a third and fourth possibility occur to me:

    3) those who abstain or keep silent. it could be due to any of the following:
    a) because of inconclusive knowledge and that they need strong proof and would like to ascertain facts before doing takfir.

    b) because they are not clear of the concepts that lead to takfir and are thus hesitant.

    c) because they have a mistaken notion of 'the greater good' and suppose that these aberrations can be ignored.

    d) because they do not have enough knowledge and are cowed by the professor's name-dropping and intimidated that they hesitate to question such 'erudition' (while serious students laugh at the pretense).

    e) because they don't want to be dragged into controversies.

    f) opportunists who see an association with a famous person to advance their own interests. these are two kinds: one who is not worried or aware of religious issues, and he is awed by the crowd (and the crowd-puller); the second is one who has reservations on religious counts (as he may not do the same things tahir did) but will suppress this for his desire to share the limelight.
    4) those who second the fatawa of other muftis and attest their opinions.

    tahir is a showman and people are impressed by the grand show that he puts up. but any student can tell, that he does not know common fiqh and hadith principles. i consider tahir as a munafiq (sulah-kulli) due to the inconsistency in his books and that he tries to please all factions; i do not consider him a muslim either, based on the youtube videos of wembley arena and follow-up kufriyat.

    if tahir is not to be ruled as a kafir for so many statements of kufr, then we must purge the books of fiqh and usul the entire section on riddah.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  4. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

    I have posted the fatwas from the same group which is going after Dr. Sahab right now...
    If you are following one fatwa of that group why not follow the above one also?

    The followers of that group consider namaz behind DI as invalid and one of the reasons has been posted above...

    Regarding Dr. Sahab I am still to get unamity about hiim on this issue.
    Single Book written by some unkonwon author is not a standard for me to declare someone Kaafir as Ala Hazrat said that you can't rule a person Kaafir till his Kufr is more bright than the Sun...

    In fact I have seen more Ulema are in his favour rather than against him..

    Check the Latest Mashaikh Conference:::!

    You have just gven names of few Ulema who did Takfeer and some who have differed with him and not done Takfeer....

    Till the time I see a Majority of Ahlus sunnah scholars not turning against him i am going to consider him as Muslim(if not Mujaddid) to protect my Imaan!!
  5. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    let us solve all the problems of our ummah now that dr sahib has commited this blunder, and let us keep him to the last.

    what about the water supply situation in mumbai ? are any muballighs helping you in this ?
  6. Taalib-e-Ilm

    Taalib-e-Ilm Well-Known Member

  7. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Actually I take that back and do ruju3 regarding saying that about the padri, even if it was ONLY in the context of terrorism.

    I seek Allah's forgiveness and also ask the members of the forum to forgive me for saying that about tahir.

    tahir is incapacitated to "state the obvious".

    or else he wouldn't call christians "believers" or say that it is the Prophet, 3alaihis salam's Sunnah to call kafirs to pray in mosques according to their own rituals, or go against the established ijma3 on diyat, the list of the "obvious'es" that he has diametrically opposed is too long to mention.

    I hereby do ruju3 from my saying that tahir stated the obvious. I didn't read his terrorism fatwa, but given his track record, he may well have, most probably would have, gone diametrically against some established Islamic "obvious" point in there too.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  9. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

  10. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    guess the person who has most recently declared as kafirs a whole group of people and been advertising his fatwa everywhere??????

    You don't deny TuQ has been calling people kafir? Forget anyone else, your leader has been doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - does that make him a 'takfiri'?
  11. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    if the salafis get time beyond mocking dr sahibs videos of self-praise, fanboy birthday songs and christmas parties at MuQ worldwide, there was a chance they would take him seriously and read his books.

    Dr sahib keeps them so busy with the above three that what you are reporting about salafis is almost hilarious.

    people don't read freely available fatwas, do you think anyone other than the fanboys would spend money to read his full terrorism fatwa.

    i would also want to know the names of english works that have been so influential in the west among salafis ?
  12. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

    guess the person who has most recently declared as kafirs a whole group of people and been advertising his fatwa everywhere??????
    Listen to this speech in which Allama Rais Qadri has called killing of Civilians as Kufr....

    Now when in India he tells Muslims to forget Gujarat riots
    Everything was recorded in that Ijtema..can you share the link meniontioning this?
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Anyone read that 600-page "fatwa" by the padri in full?

    It costs some 40 odd dollars and I've got better things to do with my money, but I just want to get some kind of an executive summary of what he actually wrote, other than just stating the obvious "Islam condemns the murder of innocent civilians".
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    This is the 3rd, sorry, 4th time that a link to the same news has been posted. It gets boring after sometime, especially 'extremists', 'radicals', 'takfiris' and all that.

    'Latest' news does'nt exist in that article.
  15. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    Its what happens when you wear several hats and don't have a firm stance on any issue. When he was involved in Pakistani politics he was anti-India/pro Kashmir self determination etc. Now when in India he tells Muslims to forget Gujarat riots but then retracts and says he was thanking Modi for security - and is pro-India and just before his visit publicised a Milad program in a Hindu Temple to please the Indians.

    I like the irony of the title 'takfiri Maulvis/lobby '- guess the person who has most recently declared as kafirs a whole group of people and been advertising his fatwa everywhere??????
  16. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

    As for Zaheeruddin, he follows the Ashrafiya Silsila but fell into the trap of "ulema coucil" - hob-nobbing with Rafzis and Deobandis.
    Please maintain Adab while speaking about Ulema of Ahlus Sunnah..
    Mods can see a Live example what I was talking about in my posts that Adab is vanishing on this forum and people start name calling to Ulema if they differ on a certain issue...

    Note for poster of above comment...Ulema of Ahlus Sunnah stood united with Deobandis and Shias in Khatme Nubuwwat Issue also and till date no fatwa has been issued on those think before posting such comments about Ulema..alright?
  17. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    @Abu Hasan

    Haven't you read them??? All the new Muslims who have converted to Islam around the world is because of all these TuQ books!! And they haven't been ghost written either!!

    In the US its not the Quran or Mowlana Rumi's mathnavi in English which are the fastest sellers, its TuQ's books - didn't you know that?? tut tut tut
  18. HarunI

    HarunI Banned

  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have been ignoring panegyrics of tahiri fans as it is difficult to argue with infatuated people. but i wonder which english book is so outstanding. we have already seen tahir's arabic that threatens hariri's maqamat, and urdu that could worry asadullah khan; let us see the english book that will embarrass shakespeare.

    can you please suggest a few titles?
  20. Abdul Mustafa 786

    Abdul Mustafa 786 Active Member

    No its definitely not the creed of A'la Hazrat R.A., please read the booklet: "PROFESSOR" TAHIRUL QADRI (of Pakistan), scroll down at:

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