tablighis and habayib

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by abu Hasan, Feb 6, 2013.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    which probably gives him the qualification to mean what he says it means.

    oh, yeah. everybody else is illiterate.
  2. Ahmad al Najjar

    Ahmad al Najjar New Member

    KS, I am surprised at your logic, if it is the case that imam raza's works are in Arabic then so is khalils muhannad , in a glossy edition with an endorsement from one of the prominent senior scholars of Damascus, sh farfur, so are the Arab scholars who accept the contents in this work excused because it's in Arabic!?one must not forget that although imam raza's works are in Arabic language, the original works on which he based his takfir are in urdu!

    As for sh hamza's remarks which although were a blunder, no qualified mufti who has a good command of the English language and is a aware of the nuances of the language and able to contextualise his words, since sh hamza's level of English is par excellence, has issued a verdict of takfir, so it's a mere blunder ,and are people expected to dissociate themselves from every public speaker who makes a blunder?!if that was the case there will be no public speaker left to associate with apart from a handful of people like yourselves who are immune from blunders!.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if arab scholars still associate with devbandis after learning of the issues and acknowledging them, respect and love for them automatically evaporates from my heart.

    but...i will still not do takfir with the udhr, giving them the benefit of doubt, that they probably think that we are mistaken - and because they do not know urdu, the excuse is admissible.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    we cannot do takfir of everybody based on assumptions. every person will be evaluated and as long as the remotest possibility remains to abstain from takfir, we shall do so and we fear Allah ta'ala. arab/western ulama have an excuse as long as they do not agree with the statements of kufr, and as long as they do not support such statements of kufr.

    put yourself in their shoes - and assume you do not know urdu. what options do you have to understand the issue? particularly when deobandis are well known and sunnis are not? instead of blaming arab ulama for being lax, we should blame ourselves for not doing much. indeed, things are changing NOW, but we have a gap of 50-60 years already. remember that.

    wAllahu'l musta'an.

    i once read out 10-20 pages from a book to a group of staunch (and aggressive) sunni brothers, concerning the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. and asked them, what do you make of this author? they said without hesitation that he is a sunni.

    yet, it was zakariyyah kandhlawi's "tablighi niSab," the original edition with fazayil e durud, which is now deprecated in modern editions of "fazayil e a'amal".

    take muhannad itself. khalil glibly lies that they celebrate mawlid - and if shaykh muhammad alawi believed it and in good faith praised them as sunnis, what is his fault? if he were an urdu speaker and refused to shun devbandis even after being apprised, we would distance ourselves from him.

    i have asked this question earlier: suppose you are asked about the opinion of some chinese scholar X who has written blasphemous lines in some chinese work - how would you respond? what would be the basis for you to issue a fatwa of kufr (unless you know chinese and are proficient with its idioms and usage)? suppose X is advertised as a person who supports customs and practices we sunnis do, what would your natural inclination be? any careful scholar will hesitate to do takfir unless he is very sure and unless he has ascertained facts himself.

    i am only a student, but still, even i reserve a judgement until i see evidence myself. even with the devbandi issue, in spite of being raised in a sunni family with an intense dislike of devbandis, i spent a lot of time investigating books of deobandis, reading their apologia, their accusations on alahazrat, comparing their texts with alahazrat's analyses and his judgement. we used to hear about alahazrat from speechmakers, and had a hazy picture in our minds; somewhat like a silhouette among trees in the dark - you don't know what it is; but reading his works - alongside those of his contemporaries put things in an altogether different light. not a good metaphor, but he was a giant among pygmies - a majestic eagle amidst sparrows.

    fortunately for me, urdu is my mother tongue and i can read urdu on my own without any assistance; AND i had/have access to their books and literature as well as ours. alHamdulillah, the strength of my conviction today is based on what i have seen first hand - both the accuracy of alahazrat's analysis and rulings and the flawed argument of the devbandis apart from the misrepresentation and lies. if i did not know urdu or did not have access to all these works - i would probably hesitate to take a stand too. al-iyadhu billah.

    the only way forward today for sunnis is to hold firmly to alahazrat by way of his books (which is also his waSiyyah). publish and promote his books because he is not just an imam with immense knowledge, but also a wonderful writer. and his books are page-turners. anyone can compile a book of facts and citations (even beginners and slackers like myself do it these days) but only a skilled master can write it in a way alahazrat does: the style, the diction, the logical progression of the argument, addressing objections that may arise as well those raised already plus his own in both content and form.

    devbandis prevailed in the previous round by lying and by deception. we cannot change the past nor can we be blamed for it. what we can do now and in-sha'Allah in the future is to work towards dispelling false notions. i sometimes muse that we should also write a book named: mafaheem yajibu an tuSaHHaH and call the devbandi bluff that only they are doing 'academic' work whereas sunnis only celebrate meelad and visit shrines.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  5. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    No one is excused. Ala Hazrat's works are in Arabic and many people have read them.

    People still associate with Mufti Ahmad Hasoun even after his atrocious comments.

    People still associate with Hamza Yusuf even though he is adamant on the Dante issue.

    People still associate with Deobandis even after knowing the issues.

    The facts are clear with deviants in most cases, Arab or other.
  6. Ahmad al Najjar

    Ahmad al Najjar New Member

    sorry i was referring to your words 'after research,i agree...'when i said tahqiq,so as a layperson would you say those four scholars on whom imam raza put takfir are kafir?
  7. I never claimed I had tahqiq. I'm a layperson. It's simply my opinion after following posts of people like Abu Hasan - whether that's 'credible' enough to you or not is a seperate matter, was-salam.
  8. Ahmad al Najjar

    Ahmad al Najjar New Member

    sidi suleiman,i dont understand how credible your tahqiq will be if you cannot access the original works in urdu to come to the conclusion that sayyidi ala hazrat was 100% correct but it would be interesting to know as this maybe a breakthrough in convincing the Arab ulema, if you can explain to us and the Arab ulema so they no longer have excuse.
  9. No, I'm not.

    I see where you might be going with this. In a nutshell, I'm not saying if you don't know Urdu, it's not possible to agree with Imam Ahmad Rida. What I am saying is, if you don't know Urdu, you have an excuse.
  10. Ahmad al Najjar

    Ahmad al Najjar New Member

    sidi suleiman ,don't mind me asking but are you well_versed in urdu?
  11. mimtiyaz

    mimtiyaz New Member

  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sorry wadood, the title with your name was inadvertent. i moved the posts from another thread and unfortunately, yours was the first post and inherited the title, which is now corrected.

    i have deleted your protest post as well to avoid confusing readers who will log in later.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    obviously, i don't have first hand information - but based on what i read, i give the benefit of doubt to the habayib for a number of reasons:

    1. as suleiman mentioned, the habayib do not have access to urdu to understand the devbandi menace and they give them the benefit of doubt.

    2. deobandis are hypocrites and happily do taqiyyah; some english speaking devbandis do it by filibuster.

    in a follow up to his Hawl al-iHtifal bi dhikra al-mawlid, shaykh al-alawi compiled fatawa of scholars from all around the world who permitted and promoted mawlid named al-iylam. see here.

    pages 158-162, he lists excerpts from muhannad.

    every indian/pakistani who has some knowledge of this issue will split his sides laughing at such travesty. mahmud al-hasan and thanawi permitting mawlid? and the moon is made of blue cheese.

    this is the 'fatwa' written by the kadh'hab khalil ahmed ambhetvi, who wrote in his barahin that celebrating mawlid is similar to the nativity scene of kanhaiya (blue-god of hindus aka krishna). see here.

    the sayyid was deceived by liars; the sayyid believed them. therefore, all his praise of devbandis can be ignored as the shaykh said it in good faith and unawares - he was not attesting the kufriyat of devbandis.

    as for the attestations of muhannad, which are forgeries anyway - which ibn adam has tried to whitewash with a shiny edition trying to erase fingerprints at the crime scene... your time will also come, in-sha'Allah.

    liars will be humiliated and their lies will be exposed.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    ps: all of this was because sunnis were sleeping when devbandis were busy doing their PR. a major portion of the blame also rests on sunni scholars for not doing enough.
  14. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    No the young Habib said it to my friend in Tarim. Ask the young students from UK ... one senior student left Tarim and went to Zabid as a result of this.

    Sidi Suleiman I didnt criticise the Habaib nor called for them to do takfir.
  15. Where did you hear this? From YaNabi, or a deobandi student? or from a reliable source.

    Secondly, there's no need to bring this up in every thread about the Haba'ib. The arab scholars are surely excused regarding the takfir, since they do not know the language... It's the same excuse given to as-Sayyid Muhammad 'Alawi and others. As for me, after research, I agree - Imam Ahmad Rida was 100% right. However, if you can make excuses for as-Sayyid al-Ya'qubi teaching alongside with one of their scholars, surely you can make an excuse for someone who went on khuruj with them?

    Anyway, you've kind of spoilt the spirit of the thread.

    Could I ask the moderators to at least split the thread?
  16. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Akhi the Habaib go on Tablighi Jamat and speak fondly of them. Habib Umars son especially prefers them over barelwis ask the brothers who studied in Yemen. Other ba alawis like Sufi Sadiq from Blackburn do not like deobandis

    'We discussed many important matters such as: The importance of unity and the unfortunate Deobandi/Barelwi split. He stated that he has respect for the scholars of both Schools and that something definitely needs to be done in order to bring these two Schools close to one another. Habib Ali suggested that young Ulama from both camps should get together and formulate a plan on how to bring the youngsters close to one another. He mentioned that it will be difficult for the elders of both communities to do away with their differences, thus it was the duty and responsibility of the younger generation to take on this important task upon themselves'
  17. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Very good question. Wouldnt be suprised if they did the hypocrites!.

    But when they return to the shores of the UK or their homelands where ever that may be they resort to their old ways and show their true reality.

    Which is to shout bida and mock the sunnis for the jaloos and mawlid celebrations.

    These people are the army of shaitan and are following iblis's footsteps for truely he iblis was unhappy and cried when the mercy to the worlds sallallahu alaihi wa aalihi wassallam was born.
  18. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Do the Deobandi/Tablighis join in with the julus and qiyam in Tarim?

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