Tafdeel means Shia or Rafidi - Bidah

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Aqdas, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Believing Sayyiduna Abu Bakr is afdal (superior) amongst the sahabah is from the necessities of Ahlu's Sunnah.

    It isn't only jumhur (majority), rather there is ijma'a (scholarly consensus) on this.

    Therefore, a denier of the superiority of Abu Bakr is a deviant, out of Ahlu's Sunnah.

    Some people are opening the door to tafdil (believing others are superior to Abu Bakr) by saying: 'oh, we believe he is superior but it's fine to believe otherwise. Tafdilis are also Sunni.'

    Wrong. Here is a summary of the Sunni position:

    1. Abu Bakr is superior.
    2. Whoever believes he isn't is a deviant.
    3. If Zayd believes Abu Bakr is superior but those who don't are also Sunni, this itself means Zayd is committing bidah.

    Know this well.

    رضي الله عنه
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    please do that in a separate thread and keep it locked so it's clean of troll phlegm.
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I wonder why you hang out over here if you are not into "street talk". If you are here to show off your knowledge, then I (and probably most over here) are not even least bit impressed (even without any comparable depth of knowledge, I can see from your methods/methodology how shallow you are). "Fanboys", if that's how you want to call, are unlikely to be swayed by your hit and run tactics.

    So what exactly are you doing here? Did anyone invite you on sunniport that you are finding it so hard to quit? I suspect only reason you have managed to continue without being banned yet, is that aH wants to expose you even further. I doubt that someone as full of oneself like you will get the message or be ashamed. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to avenge some of earlier slight/insult. That is evident from the history of your posts. Since none of us know you in person, you may happily quit than dig yourself a bigger hole.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i asked you about what is this thing about caliphate that you accused me.

    and if you are really sincere, i am willing to discuss all of your issues that you allege that i am running away from. but not in the haphazard manner you work. you don't answer objective questions, just whataboutery.

    in sha'Allah, for the benefit of other members who don't read arabic, i will try to explain what i have quoted and inferred.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  5. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

    bhai log: abu hasan, noori, agent-x, islamisthetruth, I don't have time for your mirch and masala talk. Like i mentioned before i am not into street talk. if you have something to contribute on the topic post.

    Nawazuddin, interesting post. If you have the document PDF or Word, can you upload it, i like to read it.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    didn't understand this accusation quite. please elaborate or jig my memory.
  7. agent-x

    agent-x Well-Known Member


    Reminds me of a certain tafdili Pir from Walthamstow - the irony
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i posted a translation of shaykh bajuri's text - and it was not a cut and paste.

    someone asked about the definition, and i quoted/translated from a reliable text. if you have objections on it, please state them and also state your position. you hardly answer any objective questions and even when you answer it is mostly whataboutery.

    if you are interested we can discuss this one issue and reach a conclusion, but it should be focused and objective.

    d-uh. does it require a disclosure note now? anyone can tell that it is from a PDF.

    but PDFs can either by typed-out by volunteers without editorial oversight; or images of published books (many which are supervised by scholars and are proofread; in spite of the few mistakes that creep in). so an image-PDF is as good as a book, unlike typed-PDFs and typed text online. to be on the safer side, one should always refer to a book (regardless of its being in printed or PDF form) for proper context. this would require one to actually place the cited text and provide a proper reference.

    on the other hand, searching for and copying chunks of text from websites is relatively easy, but will have reliability issues. even if you find a text online, it is always safer to compare it in printed versions.

    you need to read the cited passages to understand.

    it is a detailed answer, which you can look up relevant books.

    i am citing alahazrat and other authorities - who perhaps knew more about ijma'a and hadith than you. same with bajuri. given bajuri's opinion and your dissent, i prefer bajuri to your opinion.

    in sha'Allah.
  9. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    In Ṭabaqāt al-Ḥanābilah by Abū Ya`la it states: Abdullah ibn Ahmed Ibn Ḥanbal said: I asked my father about who is a rāfiḍī? He replied: a rāfiḍī is the one who curses/reviles Abū Bakr and Umar (raḍi Allah anhumā).

    rafidi 2.PNG

    In manāqib al-Shāfa`ī by al-Bayhaqī and manāqib al-Shāfa`ī by al-Rāzī it states: Abū Dā’ūd reports from Aḥmed ibn Ḥanbal that Yaḥya ibn Ma`īn called Imam al-Shāfa`ī a shīah. So Ibn Ḥanbal replied: you are saying this about an Imam of Muslims? Ibn Ma`īn replied: I have read the chapter of bāghīs/rebels in his book and from begining to end and he takes Alī Ibn Abī Ṭālib as a proof. Ibn Ḥanbal replied: I am surprised at you; who else would al-Shāfa`ī justify his rulings against the bāghīs/rebels other than Alī? He was the first to have encountered by the bāghīs. Alī is the one whose sunnah we have about the rules of engagement with rebels. It is neither reported from Rasūl Allah ﷺnor from the example of earlier Khulafāh. After hearing this Yaḥyā ibn Ma`īn became ashamed.

    rafidi 3.PNG
    rafidi 4.PNG

    Never mind al-Shāfa`ī, see for example, tahdhīb al-tahdhīb of al-Asqalānī. Ḥaḍrat Abū al-Ṭufayl Āmir ibn al-Wāthilah was ṣaḥābī who accompanied Rasūl Allah ﷺ for eight years yet it is strange that muḥadithūm would say that he was shī`ī and ‘authentic’ in transmission of ḥadīth. Strange how these people treat those who love the ahl al-bayt. What about all ṣaḥābah are `udūl in ḥadīth transmission. There is no discussion on their authentIcity but we have these scholars entertaining this discussion and saying he was thiqah...and labeled him as shī`ī.

    It seems to me that being a shī`ī is arbitrary and people have vented their anger at those who loved the ahl al-bayt dearly to the extent of accusing them. The truth is that in the earlier ages those who loved the ahl al-bayt were called a shī`ī in the sense of shiān e Alī and shīān e muāwīyah. Imam Shāfa`ī was called shiah for declaring those who fought Imam Alī as bāghīs whereas it is ahl al-sunnah. A ṣaḥābī is accused of being a shī`ī for his love for ahl al-bayt. On the other hand, we have them reporting from those who sent curses upon Imam Alī such as ḥarīz ibn uthmān, imrān ibn khaṭṭān but not reporting from the grandson of Imam Hasan al-Mujtabā Al-Hasan ibn ẓayd ibn al-Hasan ibn ali ibn abi talib or husayn ibn zayd ibn ali ibn al-Husayn...see tahdhīb.
  10. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

    why suddenly you care so much about me? you should be advising the people who bad mouth, abuse, mock and taunt others, and then claim to be sunni writing in defense of sunni aqaid. they don't have any adab or manners.
    what they accuse others must be true about themselves.

    yeah ok Ottomon Khilafate.

    if the man had real knowledge he wouldn't be on the run like he did a cut and paste from bajuri and when asked is Jibril alayhis salam considered a sahabi - unable to answer.

    so did Prophet sallahu alayhi wa sallam took Quran from Sahabi Jibril.
    this is one sample of his cut and paste.

    more examples can be given, but i am not here for that task. someday he will realize that he was wrong in foul mouthing others.
  11. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    @basirqadri786 give up, your making yourself look like a fool.
    Surely you must have something better to do.
  12. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

    add this to anothet list of falsehood by abu hasan. brother why do keep making wrong statements. this is another lie.

    can you kindly standup and tell the reader that all the quotes which you have posted here are not from pdf file and you have read the books from cover to cover albeit with your incompetence and proven comprehension issues with arabic.

    please be honest about before making claims on other or you are just show maker here on the forum instead of admitting your mistake about definition of rafidism from your own quote from ibn hajar now you move to another game, trying to define shiaism? what happened to rafidism that moved from rafidism to shiasm. Yet once again the snippet you presented from ibn hajar do you even understand it ?

    or you are posting here to show others you understand what is happening and by calling my stupid or are you really that low?

    whatever happened to the main issue?

    giving tafdeel is against ijma so how is it slight bidah, abu hasan. your claims show you have huge gaps in knowledge just like you ottoman khilafate while any kid who studied basic texts knows khilafa is for quresh. then your problem with comprehension arabic language as shown in this and other threads. work on yourself before you call or imply others stupid.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alahazrat in fatawa ridawiyyah 11/346:

    FR v11p346.png
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    first of all i did not say that it is "agreed upon" terminology.

    secondly, it was extrapolated from ibn Hajar's notice in another work tahdhib al-tahdhib where he says:

    tahdhib al-tahdhib v1/p94:

    tahdhibibnhajar v1p94.png

    to summarise the above: "in the parlance of the earlier (hadith) scholars, tashayyu means hazrat ali was superior to hazrat usman or that hazrat ali was in the right in the conflicts/wars (he had with other sahabah) and his opponents were wrong, but giving precedence to shaykhayn and superiority; sometimes, some of them believed that hazrat ali was superior to the rest of the creation after RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam (even though ibn Hajar doesn't say so, it is implicit that anbiya are excluded)...

    as for tashayyu in the parlance of later scholars - it is absolute rifD; the narration of a fanatical rafiDi is unacceptable, and there is no honour.

    dhahabi discussing superiority of hazrat ali over hazrat uthman says in his siyar a'alam: 16/457-458

    siyar v16p457.png

    (dhahabi) i say: giving superiority to hazrat ali (over hazrat uthman) is not rifD/rafD, nor it is heresy. many saHabah and tabiyin held that view.

    perhaps if you really had seen the book, instead of a snippet - you would have understood it.

    is it clear who is doing cut and paste now? you need to understand the style of the author and the terms he uses - for that you need cross references.

    if you read in the quotes somewhere that among the ancients, 'tashayyu' meant superiority of hazrat ali over uthman and it is this thing that dhahabi commented on which you have highlighted in red.

    follow your own advice, and read across some sources. maybe you will someday (when you grow older) realise how stupid you have been.

    anyway, in lisan al-mizan, ibn Hajar explains dhahabi's statement from mizan.

    lisan v1/p202:

    lisanalmizan, v1p202.png

    see it is not from my pocket.

    in the posts below, you have just copied and pasted it from site, therefore there are no references (in case you don't know what 'reference' means, where is mentioned, in which book and if possible which vol/page.

    keep posting and i will show you more examples.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
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  15. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

    This is what abu Hasan wrote trying to give us understanding of what Rafidi means and he quotes Ibn Hajar and adds his how own spice, but read the translation, all his spices evaporates along with his attempt to malign me.

    Abu Hasan to support his definition of what Tafzeeli and Rafizi means he cites Ibn Hajar and adds his personal comment like
    "according to the terminology of muhaddithin" which is his own assumption or guess, how does he know this is the agreed upon
    terminology of muhaditheen, guess work/assumption, or where did he pull this from? his own pocket?

    Below clearly shows ABu Hasan has arabic comprehension problems:

    So, this is what Ibn Hajar says:

    Shism is love of Ali and giving him preference over sahaba
    whoever gave preference over Abu Bakr and Omar then he is extreme in his shism and he is called RAFIDI or otherwise shiyi.
    If he added to it, abuses and permitted hatred then extreme in Rafidism, and if he believed in.......

    والتشيع محبة علي وتقديمه على الصحابة فمن قدمه على أبي بكر وعمر فهو غال في تشيعه ويطلق عليه رافضي وإلا فشيعي،
    فإن انضاف إلى ذلك السب والتصريح بالبغض فغال في الرفض
    وإن اعتقد الرجعة إلى الدنيا فأشد في الغلو

    Now compare the saying of Ibn Hajar with the saying of Amidi

    وقال الروافض: عليّ- عليه السلام- أفضل الصحابة ،
    وزادوا على ذلك وقالوا: إنه أفضل من النبيين بعد رسول الله .

    Rawafid said: Ali alayhis salaam, is BEST of the companions, and on top of that they add: After the Prophet sallahu alayhi wa sallam, He is better than prophets

    Now, where does Amidi say about Rawafid and disparage the shaykhayn or the rafiDis are the vilifiers, the abusers
    and ibn hajar says abusing sahaba is extreme rafidism. Ask Abu Hasan, according to Ibn Hajar from the above quote if the person DOES NOT ABUSE OR PERMIT HATRED against Abu Bakr and Omar, then what is he called because if he does abuse and permit hatred he is extreme in Rafdism.

    So, why does he object on me, because he doesn't understand what he is cutting and pasting.

    the whole huss and fuss and hue and cry that I misrepresented or to cover up that slip, you are just throwing around things which are not relevant to the topic.
    is all not true as you can see from above.

    if I made mistake please feel free to correct me. May Allah reconcile our hearts. un-necessary heated arguments on definition.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you can keep regurgitating your mantra of "cut and paste" even though it is clear by now that you have never seen books, nor have the ability to read them. everybody on this forum can see who is doing "cut and paste" and who can look up a book and properly cite them.

    let me define it for you: when you do a search and find it on some page and paste it here - usually, without thinking - it is 'cut and paste'. but if you read it in a book, and post a snippet, it is a citation. now, i am not against 'cut and paste' per se. but i prefer looking it up in a book instead of online sources - as they can be unreliable or even dishonest citations. perhaps you are angered by my method because you are incapable of doing so. but let it go. let us not argue about it.

    i just corrected the definition. this definition of tafdili and rafidi is important - and mentioned in various books of aqidah and fiqh.

    as for 'addressing' it, we have been refuting tafdilis for years now. you are welcome to state sunni positions, but if you think people will swallow half-baked research and won't notice shoddy reasoning and praise you to the skies, you should go to facebook. this is sunniport.
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  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    go ahead and explain what exactly did ibn Hajar say. if you are sincere and honest, it should not be very difficult. unless you do that, it means that you have not understood it.
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
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  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    oh yeah, you are the epitome of sweet talk and the very personification of politeness.

    yes i read the quote; you didn't understand the point i was making. please read it once again.
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    am not arguing against that point about the superiority of shaykhayn.

    the comment was on your incorrect description (translation/retelling whatever) of tafdili from amidi's work. to cover up that slip, you are just throwing around things which are not relevant to the topic.

    but you must know that the scholars who said that it is ijmaa also considered tafdil to be a mild aberration, slight bida'h.

    what exactly is your definition of cut and paste? where did you cite nawawi from? if it is not very difficult - please cite your sources. or do you have a problem finding it in a book? anyway, do mention the quote of imam nawawi.
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  20. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

    Mera bhai, you quote from Ibn Hajar, did you read the quote, and then you insult and mock me regarding amidi and I misrepresent him, so are you mis-representing ibn hajar asqalani ?

    والتشيع محبة علي وتقديمه على الصحابة فمن قدمه على أبي بكر وعمر فهو غال في تشيعه ويطلق عليه رافضي وإلا فشيعي،
    فإن انضاف إلى ذلك السب والتصريح بالبغض فغال في الرفض
    وإن اعتقد الرجعة إلى الدنيا فأشد في الغلو

    if you were in my place, you would have mocked and insulted me, but here I am telling openly, you are doing cut and paste and arguing for no reason on things which are not really very important. Shia - Rafidi - Tafzili ... Our discussion is about Tafdeel Superiority, so let us address that. ok bro.
    Last edited: May 8, 2017

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