The Attributes of Allah According to the Pseudo Salafis

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Aqib alQadri, Apr 9, 2014.

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  1. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    what is 'ooper' if the world is round?????
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

  3. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    al-salam `alaikum.
    Well, for a start this is a thread about the pseudo-salafis.... However, it would appear that salafis do believe that (in their own words) 'it is rationally possible' for Allah to lie but 'Allah never lies, even though He could if he wanted to'. See: 1) Here and 2) Here as well as the link in that thread to salafi theologian Abdel Aziz al-Rajihi's commentary on the Tahawiyya. This view does not appear correct to me but I will admit that I have not fully understood this obscure subject and will plead the fifth! ;-)
  4. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    al-salam `alaikum,

    i have edited the posts and posted them in this thread.
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    and what about?

    Faqir will never deign to answer that question.

    Yes (to add to the chorus), what about the deobandis who attribute lying to Allah (azza wajal)? What about the deobandis who reject the Prophet's (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) knowledge of unseen (and thereby deny that Allah (azza wajal) has the power to grant the knowledge to whom He wills)?
  6. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    They also attribute disgraces (qabaih) to the qudra (power) of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. From among those disgraces is lying. Saying lying is under the qudra of Allah ta'ala.

    This was introduced in India by Isma'il Dehlawi, and the promoted by Rashid Ahmad Gangohi.

    Based on this fallacy a Christian can ask 'why is it impossible for God to have a child if he has power over everything?'
  7. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    To add, in the book Qudum Kataib al-Jihad li Ghazwi Ahl al-Zindiqah wa al-Ilhad by the pseudo-salafi Shaykh Abdul 'Aziz al-Rajihi he says after quoting Kitab al-Sunna:

    "These words are correct undoubtedly. Yes; is istiwa anything other than sitting? This is one of the meanings of the word istiwa . . . . So the verse, "The All-Merciful rose over the Throne" means ascended and sat; however, it is in a way that befits His majesty. . .


    Source (p. 101)
  8. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    al-Salam `alaikum. Yes Abdal Qadir I agree. Or perhaps I should add 'Pseudo-salafi' before 'shaykh' as they are shuyukh to them. Again, editing on this forum will be a problem but I'll edit elsewhere, insha'Allah.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I would like to ask despite knowing all this, why do you still call these shayateen as 'shuyukh' and say 'may Allah have mercy on him'?
  10. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Faqir what about the Deobanis who attribute lying to Allah
  11. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    I hadn't realised that there was a time limit to EDIT on this forum.

    I was planning to update the links in post 1 to correspond with the posts in this thread and also to fix the arabic for the quote from sh. al-Albani in post 3

    قال في تعليقه على صحيح الترغيب والترهيب ( 1 / 116 ) من طبعة المكتب الإسلامي الثانية 1406 هـ* ما نصه :
    فائدة هامة : اعلم أن قوله في هذا الحديث : فإن الله قبل وجهه .
    وفي الحديث الذي قبله فإن الله عز وجل بين أيديكم في صلاتكم لا ينافي كونه تعالى على عرشه ، فوق مخلوقاته كلها كما تواترت فيه نصوص الكتاب والسنة ، وآثار الصحابة والسلف الصالح رضي الله عنهم ، ورزقنا الاقتداء بهم ، فإنه تعالى مع ذلك واسع محيط بالعالم وقد أخبر أنه حيثما توجه العبد فإنه مستقبل وجه الله عزوجل ، بل هذا شأن مخلوقه المحيط بما دونه ، فإن كل خط يخرج من المركز إلى المحيط ، فإنه يستقبل وجه المحيط ويواجهه .
    وإذا كان عالي المخلوقات يستقبل سافلها المحاط بها بوجهه من جميع الجهات والجوانب ، فكيف بشأن من هو بكل شئ محيط ، وهو محيط ولا يحاط به ؟ وراجع بسط هذا في كتب شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية كالحموية والواسطية وشرحها للشيخ = ( * ) زيد بن عبد العزيز بن فياض ( ص 203 - 213 )

    Perhaps if a mod get some time they could this for me and delete this post.
    JazakAllah khayr
  12. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis Say God Has the Attribute of Silence

    Salafi theologian Shaykh 'Alawi al-Saqqaf said:

    قال الشيخ الفاضل علوي السقاف في " صفات الله عز وجل " ( ص 177 ) : يوصف ربنا عَزَّ وجَلَّ بالسُّكوت كما يليق به سبحانه ، لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ.وهذا ثابتٌ بالسنة الصحيحة ، وهي صفةٌ فعليَّةٌ اختيارية متعلقة بمشيئته سبحانه وتعالى

    Rough translation....

    'Our Lord, Mighty and Majestic, bears the Attribute of Silence in a way that befits Him, and there is nothing like unto Him. He is The All-Hearing, The All-Seeing. This is established in the authentic Sunnah and it is a voluntary attribute of action that is attached to His Will, Glorified and Exalted is He....

    ['Alawi Al-Saqqaaf, 'The Attributes of Allah, Mighty and Majestic' (p.177)]

    The book is available at this link.


    There is a book called Al Tabsir Fi Ma'aalim Al Deen which the salafis say is by Imam al-Tabari. In there is a related quote which the Salafi editor (a prominent Salafi theologian) Dr. Ali ibn Abd al-Aziz al-Shibl objected to:


    In the above Imam al-Tabari is saying “He’s the speaker (al-Mutakallim) upon whom silence is not allowed (i.e. It is negated).”

    The salafi editor of this work writes that this position is similar to “what the Asharis say regarding Kalam Nafsi” and continues to rejects Imam Tabari's words saying, “It is not allowed to negate silence (sukut).....”
  13. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis say Allah is Settled on the Throne

    Says Sh. Ibn Uthaimeen:

    rough translation:

    We know the meaning of istawa and we believe it and and accept/approve it and He subhanahu wa ta'ala is upon is His arsh and His establishment thereupon is of aboveness and settledness (istiqrar) Glorified and Exalted be He. We don't know the modality of this al-istawa'.
  14. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis Say Allah is Attributed with Hesitation: 'A conflict between Two Wills'

    Shaikh Abdel Aziz Ar-Rajhi said:

    س: أحسن الله إليكم هل يوصف الله بالتردد كما في الحديث القدسي (وما ترددت في شيء أنا فاعله ترددي في قبض نفس عبدي المؤمن…) الحديث؟

    ج: نعم كما وصفه الرسول -عليه الصلاة والسلام- لكن هذا التردد ليس كتردد المخلوق الذي يدل على الضعف، ولكنه تعارض الإرادتين كما بين في الحديث، فالله تعالى يريد ما يريده عبده المؤمن، والمؤمن يكره الموت، فالله يريد ما يريده عبده المؤمن، ولكن الله قضى وقدر أنه يموت، فهذا تعارض إرادتين إرادة الموت؛ لأن الله قدره، وإرادة ما يريده العبد وهو كراهة الموت ولا ينافي هذا التردد ترجيح إحدى الإرادتين؛ لأن الموت لا بد منه نعم.


    "Question: 'Is Allah (swt) attributed with Hesitation (taraddud)......?'

    Answer (tr. Um Abdullah / NMS/ Musleemah): Yes, as the Messenger -Alayhi As-Salatu Wa-Salam- described Him, but this taraddud (hesitation) isn't like the hesitation of creation that indicates weakness, but it is a conflict between two wills as the hadith explains. Allah Ta'ala wants what the believing slave wants, and the believer does not like death, so Allah wants what His believing slave wants, but Allah Has decreed that He die, so this is a conflict between two wills, the will for him to die, because Allah decreed it, and the will of what the slave wants, which is hating death, and this hesitation does not go against the outweighting of one will over the other, because death is a must.
  15. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis Say Allah is Attributed With Boredom

    Sh. al-`Uthaymin says:

    وهذا الملل الذي يفهم من ظاهر الحديث أن الله يتصف به ، ليس كمللنا نحن ، لأن مللنا نحن ملل تعب وكسل ، وأما ملل الله عز وجل فإنه صفة يختص به جل وعلا ، والله سبحانه وتعالى لا يلحقه تعب ولا يلحقه كسل ، قال تعالى : ( وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَمَا مَسَّنَا مِنْ لُغُوبٍ ) (قّ:38) هذه السماوات العظيمة والأرض وما بينهما خلقها الله تعالى في ستة أيام : الأحد والاثنين والثلاثاء والأربعاء والخميس والجمعة ، قال (وَمَا مَسَّنَا مِنْ لُغُوبٍ ) يعني ما تعبنا بخلقها في هذه المدة الوجيزة مع عظمها


    Rough translation:

    "This malal [literally: boredom], which is understood as an attribute of Allah from the literal/apparent meaning of the narration, is not like our boredom, for our boredom constitutes of tiredness and laziness. As for the boredom of Allah, the Powerful and Exalted, then that is a special Attribute of the Most Powerful and High, and Allah (swt) is neither ascribed with tiredness nor laziness....."
  16. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis Say Allah has a Waist [Haqwu]

    A well known senior Salafi shaykh named Abdullah bin Aqeel says in his book "Tanbihat ala al-Akhta'a Al-'aqadiyyah fi Fath Al-Bari" (Warnings about the Mistakes in Aqidah mentioned in Fath Al-Bari), 1/31, as a refutation of Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar who made ta'wil of haqw the following:

    Rough translation excerpted from the above quote:

    "What is obligatory is to believe in that which is indicated in the hadith and to pass it it along as it has come in its literal sense, as is the case for the other texts that pertain to the divine attributes, and to believe in the implication of this hadith, which is that Allah has a waist. . . ."

    The author also objects to declaring Allah trancendent above having limbs saying:

    "As for declaring Allah transcendent above limbs, such words are ambiguous and there are no sound texts from Allah or His Messenger (salla Allah 'alaihi wa sallam) negating it, so on that basis it is not permissible to negate it or affirm it."

    The book that this qoute was taken from, was reviewed, edited and checked by some senior Salafi scholars like Abdul Aziz bin Salih Al-Fawzan and Abdullah Ghunayman.
  17. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis say Allah is Located in a Direction

    In the same source and footnote cited above of Sh. Ibn Baz on his 'commentary' on al-`Aqida al-Tahawiyya we find:

    Similar statements are found on his website such as the following:

  18. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis say Allah has a 'Form' / Image

    Abd Allah al-Hashidi the "Salafi" editor of al-Bayhaqi's al-Asma' wal-Sifat (2:60) openly attributes form and shape to Allah Most High:

    and (2:67)

    Similarly, the Egyptian 'Salafi' scholar Mohammed Khalil Harras......

    هو العلاَّمة، السلفيُّ، المحقِّق، محمد خليل هرَّاس
    كان رحمه الله سلفي المعتقد، شديدًا في الحقّ، قويّ الحجّة والبيان، أفنى حياته في التعليم والتأليف ونشر السنة وعقيدة أهل السنة والجماعة

    ....who salafis describe as:

    "He was Salafi in creed, stern in establishing the truth, persuasive in establishing his proof, he spent his life teaching, authoring, and spreading the creed of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'a"

    says on p. 39 of his commentary on "At-Tawhid" by Ibn Khuzayma:

    and on pg. 156:
  19. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis say Allah has a Limit

    Says Sh. Ibn Baz on his 'commentary' on al-`Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

    Similarly, one of their predecessors in such a belief, Abu Sa'id ad-Darimi, the author of al-Radd ala Bishr al-Marisi, said, as quoted by Sh. Ibn Taymiyah in Dar' at-Ta'arud without rebuke (2/28-29):

    Sh. Ibn Taymiyya goes further himself even referring to Allah's place when he said in Muwaafaqat al-Manqul (2:29) (republished as Dar' Ta'aarud al-`Aqli wal-Naql (2:58-59):
  20. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    Salafis say al-Istawa' is Julus - Allah is Sitting

    Says Sh. al-Uthaimeen in Majmu Fatawa (vol. 1, no. 57) quoting Ibn al-Qayyim [provided by sh. Abul Hasan]:

    وأما تفسيره بالجلوس فقد نقل ابن القيم في الصواعق 4/1303 عن خارجة بن مصعب في قوله تعالى[​IMG]الرحمن على العرش استوى((1) قوله: "وهل يكون الاستواء إلا الجلوس". ا.هـ. وقد ورد ذكر الجلوس في حديث أخرجه الإمام أحمد عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما مرفوعاً. والله أعلم


    rough translation:

    with respect to the sitting, Ibn al-Qayyim has reported in As-Sawaaiq 1303/4 from Kharijah bin Mus'ab with respect to the saying of Allah the Exalted :The ayah: Ar-Rahmanu Alal Arshi Istawa, "How can the ascension be anything other than sitting?" and the mention of sitting has been reported in the Hadeeth from Imam Ahmad from Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them both, in a Marfu' fashion. And Allah Knows best

    And, to quote sh. Abul Hasan:


    Ibn al-Qayyim is talking about a non-existent narration in the Musnad of Ahmad [i.e. he has fabricated] through Kharija who is actually matruk in hadith anyway!

    Similar statements are found in the book Kitab al-sunna attributed to `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 290) by the pseudo-salafis, but whose stand in relation to the Sunna and anthropomorphism can be judged by the following excerpts:

    10 حدثني أحمد بن سعيد أبو جعفر الدارمي قال سمعتُ أبي يقول سمعت خارجة يقول الجهمية كفار بلغوا نساءهم أنهن طوالق وأنهن لا يحللن لازواجهن لا تعودوا مرضاهم ولا تشهدوا جنائزهم ثم تلا : ﴿طه * مَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْقُرْآنَ لِتَشْقَى * إِلاَّ تَذْكِرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى * تَنزِيلاً مِّمَّنْ خَلَقَ الأَرْضَ وَالسَّمَاوَاتِ الْعُلَى * الرَّحْمَنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى﴾ ، وهل يكون الاستواء الا بجلوس.

    "Is istiwa other than by sitting (julus)?"
    page 5, Kitab al-sunna (Cairo: al-Matba`a al-Salafiya, 1349/1930)

    "He saw Him on a chair of gold carried by four angels: one in the form of a man, another in the form of a lion, another in that of a bull, and another in that of an eagle, in a green garden, outside of which there was a golden dais."
    Page 35, Kitab al-sunna (Cairo: al-Matba`a al-Salafiya, 1349/1930)

    Link to Kitab al-Sunna

    The contemporary salafi preacher Dr. Aidh al-Qarni also describes Allah as 'sitting' on His throne as can be seen in a recording of one of his khutbas.

    And finally, in his Tafsir named "an-Nahrul-Madd", the Grammarian Abu Hayyan al-'Andalusi reported about Ibn Taymiyah:


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