The Quran is not preserved, but The Dhikr is... need explanation

Discussion in 'Ulum al-Qur'an' started by Inwardreflection, Feb 5, 2021.

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  1. Surah Kahf Verse 27:

    لَاا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ

    "None can change His Words,"

    meaning, no one can alter them, distort them or misinterpret them.

    Someone should present this Verse to the Shaykh if anyone from here knows him.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    idiomatic translation of the hadith:

    من كان يؤمن بالله واليوم الآخر، فليقل خيرًا أو ليصمت

    "speak right or keep quiet"
    it means, if you don't know something is right or wrong, keep quiet. no need to speak.

    you can do ta'wils. but he was not talking about the 'knowledge' of the qur'an.

    yes, but the qur'an is preserved. في لوح محفوظ

    perhaps you can listen to his clip once again. and if you don't have time, quickly skim through the transcription in my post.

    what he has said there is plain nonsense.
  3. sunni.bro

    sunni.bro New Member

    No ustadh. I meant OUR knowledge ABOUT the Qur'an. Not the Qur'an itself. Hasn't our knowledge been decreasing since the time of the Prophet ﷺ? That's all I was trying to get at. I wasn't trying to justify it. It's hard to know what he was talking about when we don't really know what he was referring to as "Dhikr".
    I did say correct me. How does one know if they're right without being told what's right?

    Of course I believe the Qur'an is preserved. I was just asking questions.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    your justification is worse than the actual statement!

    so according to you, the actual meaning and knowledge therein is NOT preserved? where did it go? so we have the qur'an which is not preserved? al iyadhu billah..

    in which case, you are not required to explain what a 'scholar' said. speak right or keep quiet.
    Umar99 likes this.
  5. sunni.bro

    sunni.bro New Member

    As salamu alaykum.

    I haven't listened to the full clip yet, but here is part of what I heard from 16:44:

    "And Allah ta'ala literally, in a fuller sense, does not preserve the Qur'an. That's not what's preserved. Allah ta'ala's not preserved the Furqan. That't not what's preserved. It's not preserved. And I mean, period, it's not preserved. What is preserved is the Dhikr. The remembrance. 'Verily We sent down the Dhikr' Allah says. [Shaykh recites]. That is what we will preserve. The Dhikr. Anybody who claims the entire Qur'an has been preserved [Shaykh speaks Arabic] is mistaken. That's not what's been preserved."

    I'm just a lay-Muslim, so I do not know the full and actual implications of what the Shaykh says. But I think he may be referring to the Qur'an's actual meaning and knowledge therein. With the Qur'an being the Word of Allah ﷻ, wouldn't it follow that the infinite, full, and true wisdoms and reality of the Qur'an could never be possessed by a creation, and therefore it wouldn't be preserved either? I don't know. Again, I'm just a common person so please do correct me if I'm mistaken.

    Regarding Shaykh Ibrahim Osi Efa himself, I believe he is a student of a several of the Habaib of Hadramawt, Yemen.

    Haha, yes, he's from Liverpool.

    Actually, I watched many of his live sessions online during Rabi' Al Awwal. The Shaykh does respond a lot with just "Walllahu Alam" when he gets asked certain questions.
  6. shibly

    shibly New Member

    The very fact that many of the sahaba(may Allah swt be pleased with them) memorised the Quran and this practice has continued till now and would continue till the Doom's day insha Allah itself is the proof that the Holy book is preserved as it was revealed. Any body who says otherwise is ignorant of this glaring fact. Moreover Allah swt himself has taken the responsibility to preserve it as the holy book will remain a source of guidance for the humanity and the door of the prophet hood is closed.
    Even the Orientalists who are biased against Islam agree that the Quran has remained the same through out the ages and did not suffer any changes.
  7. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the second portion highlighted by original poster, about the 'seven letters' etc. etc. is another set of confusion, just as the brother said:
    in sha'Allah, i will try to share what i know. wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Umar99 and Aqdas like this.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is the disease afflicting majority of speakers in our day: superficial learning and they fill the huge gaps in their knowledge by imagination or their own interpretation which is limited by their shallow knowledge. 'i don't know' or 'perhaps i need to look up' are profanities. one can never say that on stage.

    i don't know much about the speaker, but within this clip, what he says about the qur'an is wrong; or at the least misleading and a hotch-potch description. this is like someone shooting in all directions and hoping to hit a fast flying target.

    15.51: remembrance. fa hal min muddakir. as Allah ta'ala says repeat one of the great themes of the qur'an. hal min muddakir. is there anybody who take heed. Allah sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala says: and the work of imam haddad is which we...the path of those who take heed or heed the remembrance.

    16.30: dhikra tanfa'aul mu'minin. verily the reminder will benefit the people of faith. Allah ta'ala mentions one of the most common themes in the qur'an is this theme of remembrance; and one of the names of the qur'an is itself the dhikr. and that is what Allah ta'ala preserves. and Allah ta'ala literally, in the full essence, it is not preserved the qur'an. that is not what is preserved. Allah ta'ala has not preserved the furqan. that's not what's preserved. it is not preserved. and i mean ...[unclear].. that is not what's preserved. what is preserved, is the dhikr. the remembrance. that is why we sent down the dhikr. Allah says: inna lahu la hafizun. that is what we will preserve. the dhikr.

    anybody who claims the entire qur'an is been preserved [...]from the ahd of Rasul SallAllahu alayhi wa sallama is mistaken. thats not what is preserved. rufiy. raised. great amount was raised unto Allah sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala fi ahdi'r rasul, in the time of the Rasul fi ahd as-Sahabah, in the time of the Sahaba raDiyallahu ta'ala anhum wa arDahum, but what remains is the essential themes, the necessary themes that everybody will need upto the yawm al-qiyamah, muswaddah inside of the kitabAllah, ma bayna daf'atay al-muS'Haf kalamAllah; as ayishah said, what is between the two daf'atay, between two sides of the muS'Haf... the covers of the muS'Haf...that are the words of God sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala.

    [please correct if any mistakes in citation above, had some problem with the accent]

    why can't people think and talk clearly, particularly when certain concepts/ideas are clearly explained by previous ulama? if one has to speak to the common public, they must organise the ideas and present them coherently, adding clarifications where required to prevent common people from drawing their own conclusions or leaving them confused.

    in the above short snippet:

    - according to osi-efa, in summary: "the qur'an is not preserved, but dhikr is".

    - and he also says: 'and one of the names of the qur'an is itself the dhikr'.

    so the following questions arise:

    - what is dhikr that osi-efa is talking about?

    - what is 'remembrance' and 'easy to remember' mentioned in the qur'anic verse he quotes?

    - what do we mean by kalamAllah and qur'an - are they both the same, or are there linguistic and differences depending on context?

    - is he also talking about nasikh-mansukh when talking of the preservation of the qur'an?

    - and finally, what does he mean by 'preservation'? and where?

    buruj v21-22.png

    maHfuz is with jarr or raf'a? and if raf'a what about does it say about 'preservation'?
    Umar99 likes this.
  10. MoslemMale

    MoslemMale New Member

    Asalaamu alaikum, I was listening to this lecture by Ibrahim Osi-Efa. @ 16:30 onwards he makes a statement about The Quran not being preserved, this surprised me alot and then @ 51:00 onwards he tries to explain his point but ends up not only surprising me but confusing me even more.

    can anyone explain to me what hes on about? JazakAllah.

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