The Sunni Creed regarding the Knowledge of Allah and His Messenger ﷺ

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Umar99, Mar 6, 2020.

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  1. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    Nobody is excusing the person. Rather, just not making takfir. This person may still be a deviant but just not at the level of kufr.
     
  2. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    If you substitute insanity for faulty reasoning it seems now you are excusing the person for faulty reasoning.
     
  3. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    No need. The explanation that the brother posted seems sufficient enough to me. Where is the confusion?



    "sorry - "insanity" will ward off takfir in any and every case - it does not require an explicit specification here.

    The statement, 'takfir will still not be made', indicates that the fatwa is speaking to the case which is within the ambit of takleef, whereas an insane person is not mukallaf, to begin with.

    ----

    Rather it is a case of faulty reasoning and/or ambiguity in what the person understood by those words.

    The bottom line is that, the unqualified attestation to the knowledge's being 'ata'ee', shields the speaker from takfeer.

    And Allah knows best."
     
  4. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    Perhaps you can rewrite that passage so we can see what it looks like without wrong conflation. That would clarify what you wanted to say

    As it seems right now you are excusing the person associating partners with Allah for faulty reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  5. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member


    Masha Allah, very well explained.

    "faulty reasoning" is what I should have mentioned. I think I wrongly conflated "insanity" with "faulty reasoning"

    Jazak Allahu Khairan for the clarification.

    Barak Allahu Fik.
     
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    sorry - "insanity" will ward off takfir in any and every case - it does not require an explicit specification here.

    The statement, 'takfir will still not be made', indicates that the fatwa is speaking to the case which is within the ambit of takleef, whereas an insane person is not mukallaf, to begin with.

    ----

    Rather it is a case of faulty reasoning and/or ambiguity in what the person understood by those words.

    The bottom line is that, the unqualified attestation to the knowledge's being 'ata'ee', shields the speaker from takfeer.

    And Allah knows best.
     
    Ghulam Ali and Abdullah Ahmed like this.
  7. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    That was part of question: "Of course the other possibility is what I have said is reasonable but the takfir is withheld due to some technical Sharii pearl (insanity, ignorance etc)"

    I had reasons why I couldn't apply or assume that understanding by myself (Inc people had already suggested other things on facebook, its application here is inappropriate although it might be true) , and as it turned out others didn't apply that either. You are the first to suggest that as a reason. Fair enough but it was needed to ask
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  8. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member


    In response to the above post (someone please correct me if i'm mistaken):

    Alaa Hazrat wrote that he COMPLETELY REJECTS Ataee+Equal but takfir is not made, perhaps because the sanity of the person (making such a statement) comes into question for having such a nonsensical belief.

    And if he decides to be cautious about takfir and has a very strict criteria, why is that a problem? Hes not stating that this is his belief; rather, he is just refraining from making takfir of someone else possessing a nonsensical belief.

    Is Alaa Hazrat required to provide context as to why he refrains from takfir in this case? And is there a problem if someone further deduces a possible reason for the withholding of takfir?

    Why the jump to assuming that someone has rejected the fatwa because they added context that was not already present in the fatwa?
     
  9. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    This is acceptable.


    Allah willing it is the case
     
  10. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    It makes sense to assume even the question was actually false. It is a strange question to begin with. Since the Imam was accused in his lifetime of a similar belief its not far fetched that the question was not genuine. Or it was a exaggerated allegation upon someone else with a view to tell the person his view was kufr.

    It is also absolutely possible that the answer of Alahazrat was in the context of a more normal belief, however if you look at words mentioned in the question and answer it makes it difficult to accept this with certainty. To the extent that if you say withholding from takfir was in the context you mentioned here then it can be said you are rejected the fatwa as it is presented since the wording is explicit.
     
  11. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    I did say this earlier and planned to leave the matter at that but some evidences and reaction and replies of others opened the discussion up to all possible interpretations

     
  12. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    So in truth if anyone has an issue it should be on the statement:
    "takfir is withheld from who believes in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge."
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what exactly is not clear? that alahazrat unequivocally says that the comparison of the knowledge of Allah ta'ala and that of his entire creation is like comparing billions of oceans to a billionth drop of water?

    is this very confusing to you?

    please don't attibute to alahazrat something that is a fancy of your own mind. alahazrat did not say "it is not shirk to believe in ata'i equal".

    he only said, we do not do takfir of a person who said "the knowledge of Allah and RasulAllah are equal" PROVIDED he believes the knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is granted, bestowed (ata'ee). and nowhere did he justify that statement. he clearly repudiated it as false and termed it absolutely wrong. furthermore, he explained the actual aqidah. this caution is misread by disgruntled people who are desperate to find something against alahazrat and attempting to create a narrative that "alahazrat said that: It is not shirk to believe in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge or any other sifat." sub'HanAllah. this is a manifest slander.

    so who is indulging in extrapolations?

    just because you cannot understand something, you want to reject the fatwa? people should know their worth and try 'not to punch above their weight'.

    reading a couple of english/urdu translations of beginner guides will not make you eligible to criticise ulama who are experts of kalam.

    alahazrat NEVER advocated that there is any equality between the Creator and His creation in ANY matter. withholding from takfir is in the context of the person might be talking about ma kana wa ma yakun and not the absolute knowledge of Allah ta'ala. and by definition, ata'ee negates equality.

    dhati is unique, His own, eternal without beginning, never-ceasingly eternal, infinite, all-encompassing, necessary (wajib), never changing (mumtani'y al-taghayyur), not subject to Divine Power.

    ata'ee is haadith (accident), which means it came into existence at some point and then it is possible for it to end (mumkin al-fanaa); it is created, it is subject to Divine Power, it keeps changing (increases or decreases) and it is finite.

    now if someone claims that it is equal - he is utterly wrong and his claim is absolutely rejected. but out of caution alahazrat withholds from takfir. just like the claim of 'possibility of falsehood in Divine Speech'.

    speak for yourself and your poor understanding.

    why don't you read al-dawlatu'l makkiyyah?


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    at last. welcome out of the closet, must have felt too stuffy in there, eh?
     
    shahnawazgm likes this.
  15. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    Is no ta'wil or rejection of the fatwa possible? We need to look on this side of things.

    Its a clear misunderstanding, error or maybe even an interpolation.
     
  16. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    The answer is actually not clear. This is an issue we should be clear on for sake of Allah.

    Its shirk to believe in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge or any other sifat.
     
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    according to alahazrat's fatwa based on certain assumptions (and assuming ta'wil can be made).
     
  18. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    When it is specific to knowledge?
     
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    when it is generalised, certainly it is.
     
  20. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    But is that belief kufr?
     

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