Transmitting The Martyrdom of Imam Husayn On Ashura !

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu nibras, Mar 6, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    ok locked !
  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator


    Brothers! why talk about deobandis. It will lead into polemics. Keep our Riyad ar-Rida forum clean.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and i think changing the title was unnecessary. the title certainly was related to the answer. the answer was a guide to what sunnis should do - or not - on ashura.

    but anyway, let us end this topic here. has abu nibras devised a method to lock a topic? and please don't change back the title once more.

    we shouldn't end up carrying the donkey on our shoulders..
  4. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    off topic.....Abu Hasan I LOVE HAMLET!!!

    jazakAllah Sidi Abu Nibras for changing the title, i am very happy
  5. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    as salam 'alaykom brother asif

    though i have heard that Mufti Muhammad Shafi' later on his life retracted most of what he said, and therefore what you mention about him might have been taken back most sure,

    Mufti Muhammad Shafi' is respected by many sunni scholars and communities in Pakistan as my fellow sunni brothers tell me
  6. Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    The reason i have highlighted the section in bold is that some deobandis like mufti muhammad shafi (the father of taqi usmani who is the teacher of ibn adam al kawthari of have given their seals of approval and signatures to a filthy book called rashid ibn rashid which has the impure aim of defending yazid and hailing him as the amir ul momineen whilst blaming imam e paak for the tragedy of karbala. astaghfirullah.

    i thought we should give the sunni view on such defenders of yazid al khabis la'natullah alayhi.
  7. Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    "AQEEDAH: Yazid paleed fasiq fajir martakab e kabair tha ma'adhallah us se aur rehana e Rasool sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam Sayyidina Imam Husayn radhi allahu ta'ala anhu se kya nisbat? Aaj kal jo ba'z gumrah kehtay hain ke humein unkay muamalay mein kya dakhal hai humaaray woh bhi shehzaday, woh bhi shehzaday. Aisa baknay wala mardood, Khariji, Nasibi, mustahaq e jahannum hai. Haan, Yazid ko kaafir kehnay aur uss par la'anat karnay mein ulama e Ahle Sunnat kay teen qawl hain aur hamaray Imam e Azam radhi Allahu ta'ala anhu ka maslak sakoot ya'ani hum ussay fasiq fajir kehnay kay siwa na kaafir kehein na musulmaan." (Amjad Ali Azmi: Bahar e Shariat, hissa awwal, p.40, naashir: Zia ul Qu'ran publications, Lahore, 1995)

    This is my translation for those who do not speak Urdu:

    DOCTRINE: Yazeed the Impure was a fasiq and a fajir and embroiled in enormities [kabair]. God forbid! What commonality is there between the flower of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, Sayyidina Imam Husayn (may Allah be well pleased with him) and him? Nowadays, some deviants [gumrah] say that why should we get involved in their personal matter, they are both our princes? A person who gabbles such things is diseased [mardood], a Kharijite, a Nasibi [hater of the Ahlul Bayt], and deserving of Hellfire. However, there are three opinions amongst the ulama of the Ahlus Sunnah about calling Yazid a kafir and cursing [sending la'anat on] him: Our Imam e Azam's (Abu Hanifa) (may Allah be pleased with him) opinion is silence [sakoot] i.e. apart from calling him a fasiq and fajir we neither consider him a kafir nor a Muslim." [Amjad Ali Azmi: Bahar e Shariat, part 1, p.40, Zia ul Qur'an Publications, Lahore, 1995]
  8. Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    abu hasan :D, i agree with you but i would be happier if the shaykh had categorically stated that 'to commemorate the martyrdom and sacrifice of imam husayn alayhisalam without the deviant practises of the rafidis is a noble and praiseworthy act' or words to that effect.

    i would STILL be delighted in seeing ala Hazrat's quotes. this is after all, 'riyad al rida'.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    on asif's comments: read the question, first. shaykh gibril's answer is precise - there must be no reservations about that. if a reputed or dependable scholar says something which seems contrary to our belief, we must investigate the matter and ascertain or clarify what he really meant. if we are still not convinced, we must then turn to other scholars. only then, when we are sure can we differ with the scholar.

    we must stop here since you have already retracted from your criticism. [you spared me the search for imam riDa's quotes..]

    wadood is incoherent and i have tough time to figure out whether he is coming or going. so i won't comment on his postses. if he is interested in a healthy exchange he must mend his prose. if not, welcome hamlet!

    Allah knows best.
  10. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran


    one more thing, the problem in this post is the title "sunni practices on ashura"

    if the question is mostly about the shia practices on ashura,

    why not name it "shia practices on ashura"

    or "should sunnis commemorate death of the noble grandson on ashura like the shias do"

    the title is not clear engough

    if the question is about sunni practices on ashura then why highlight ashura and martyrdom of imam hussain what does that have to do with sunni practices on ashura?

    though in the answer the practices are all analyzed precisly and and the correct practices stated

    these shia practices of commemoration of death have nothing to do with the sunnis in the first place,,

    whatever the motive might be behind making such a title

    obviously the answer is basically on the shia practices that have nothing to do with the sunnis

    so that is why brother asif is protesting and so am I and this is genuine

    i think creating fitnah or doing things that could create fitnah is best to be avoided in islam even if it is of the slightest level or even if to correct somebody

    this is the reason that is causing this confusion

    it is best to put this thread into" the thicket" as the topic itself is a deception

    it is a mostly shia question turned on the sunnis
  11. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    you know brother Asif,

    I can understand the strictness in reply here to such a question, it is must because of great fitnah being caused by the liars the shi'as

    in Lebanon, the shi'a are now the biggest community now, and they are trying to brainwash the people over there, we need to be strict just as Sheikh Haddad is

    the shi'a and the habashis are confusing many people over there,

    and so what Sheikh Haddad is doing is commendable, even Syyedina 'Ala HaDrat :ra: said to be strict with the bid'ati, the innovator

    the shi'a of any sect are all Sectarians, this is a fact reverberated many times above by Sheikh Haddad hafizuhuAllah ta'ala

    and in this age their fitnah must be treated harshly and conquered as they are trying their best to confuse people

    already many people have beoome shi'a misguided over the past years in that country

    i am mentioning lebanon, because it is considered as the intelectual heart of shi'a arabs in in the west(even for centuries, for details ask me privately) as southern iraq was mostly in sleep due to saddam and has just emerged recently

    so the shi'as and all their wrongs must be be exposed clearly and precisely, as obviously there is a need for it

    end of my opinion
  12. Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura


    I did not mean in any way to belittle Shaykh Haddad himself but I felt the style of the article was caustic. Also it wasn't clear whether the practises being condemned were Sunni or Shi'ite ones. If it had been made clear that it was the Shia gatherings which were being condemned then I'd have no problem with it. The only thing was the ambiguity and I was shocked why someone who is a staunch Sunni like Shaykh Haddad would condemn the gathering of Sunnis in remembrance of Imam i Pak!

    The excerpt wherein the Shaykh agrees with the Sunni practises was drowned out by the rest of the article which is why I missed it!

    The other thing I will say is that even if some things occur in the Sunni gatherings which are haram (e.g. unveiled women--and to be honest I personally have never seen that) it doesn't mean the act itself is haram. e.g. We know many haram things which happen at wedding celebrations but it doesn't mean that weddings become haram as a result!

    May Allah forgive me if I was rude or disrespectful to any Sunni scholar.
    wa salam
  13. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    the habaib and most present day sunni ulama do know and speak about the martyrdom of al imam al hussain :ra:

    celebration of his urs shareef is done by them and the sunni 'ulama in egypt, sudan and morocco every year with great love and people attain great barakah and learning from these events that have taken since the beginning

    though calling this a sunnah, is what is answered against

    though commerating death is what is answered against

    the martyrdom of al imam al hussain :ra: is a victory for islam and obviously this historic event is a matter of great happiness for us muslims as we won over the baatil through his :ra: great sacrifice
  14. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    want to voice in conjunction with abu hasan

    i think the frivolous things are more to do with culture

    the word "sajjada nasheen has been there for a long time, even in the 'arab world it is in use since the beginning

    however, the matter is about making it a big deal

    i think attaching too much importance to frivolous things is a general habit of the common man not totally into you know what

    such an act or environment is found in every community, perhaps to the most in some other setting in the deobandi community

    even in deoband itself and their schools and extensions (>8000 in the whole of south asia), this habit of attaching importance to things of not much importance is so rampant

    that it virutally scares people away

    it is just a manifestation of dunya

    nothing else

    nothing in relation to tasawwuf or the blessed uroos of the awliya allah

    though on the scary side
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    i don't see anything wrong with the article. shaykh gibril has accurately conveyed the correct position of sunni ulama. by ulama i mean, the erudite scholars - not the firebrand speakers who make incredible claims. infact, the article qualifies as a translation of few of imam aHmed riDa's fatwas! sunnis should do themselves a service and learn the classical postion of sunni scholars from books instead.

    the answer is precise and well written. i have always admired shaykh gibril's direct style.

    the urs that happens these days - and the actions therein - earned imam riDa's scorn. the qawwalis, the women going there with/without hijab, people doing all kinds of nonsense at the tomb, the so called 'sajjadah nashins' extortions...and many more munkars.

    people just attach too much importance to frivolous things.

    ibn kathir is a great scholar inspite of his admiration of ibn taymiyyah. many great sunni scholars, including imam suyuti refer to ibn taymiyyah as 'imam' - do they cease to be important anymore? an elaborate discussion of ibn taymiyyah's unique case can be found in shaykh an-nab'hani's books. it is a salafi trait to dismiss scholars in such a casual and irresponsible manner.

    asif, i advise you to read the article once more. you will find that your emotional outburst is uncalled for and is full of factual errors.

    Allah knows best.
  16. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura

    assalam `alaikum,

    Generally speaking I dont think there is any problem with what Shaykh G.F.Haddad wrote , if you read it in the context of the way he has chosen to answer the question. I think the answer from the Shaykh is primarily aimed at the style of commemoration of Ashura by the Shias and it details against the ills perpetrated by them in the name of Ashura - and that is my understanding.

    The words the Shaykh uses viz. "specific emotional or purportedly religious purposes" "bad adab posing as love of Ahl al-Bayt","lies and forgeries of which not one report is sound" particularly hint at the Shiite way of commemorating Ashura nad not the Sunni one.

    "because it fosters un-Islamic expressions of mourning and divisive hatred of some of the Companions of the Prophet and other early Muslims from the centuries praised by the Prophet"

    This is the give away clueabout who he is talking about - for do you know a Sunni wo has hatred for any of the Sahaba riDwan allahu t`aala ajmaeen due to the martydom of Imam Hussain or without it ?

    was salam


    P.S. : The Fatawa on it not just a radd of the rawafid but a very strict condemnation of practices found in sunnis as well - it has clear distinctions on pg 92 (in urdu) onwards as to what kind of commemoration and mention of the shahadat is permitteed and what kind is Haraam.
  17. Re: Sunni practises on the day of Ashura


    I am deeply saddened by this article. A mureed of Mawlana Shaykh Nazim attacking the remembrance-the 'Urs in fact! (For what else is 'urs but the commemoration of a wali's death anniversary? and even the greatest wali is not even at the rank of even the least great of the Sahaba! And Imam Husayn is not only a Sahabi but also a member of the Ahlul Bayt!)-of Imam Husayn alayhisalam?!

    Anyway the arguments are illogical and exactly the same arguments which Deobandits use against doing milad! Also Sunnis have been doing this commemoration for millenia! Have they all been doing wrong?! And just because Rafidis do it doesn't mean if we do it too it is a deviant act. We are doing it for love of Imam e Ali Maqam alayhisalam and not in imitation of the Rafidis. In addition, unlike them, we do not tear our hair, beat our breasts, wail and chant and make a commotion and flagellate ourselves! All these things are haram BUT remembering the great sacrifice Imam Husayn alayhisalam made for the defence of his Beloved Grandfather's Deen (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) is NOT and is a virtuous act. In a hadith (when Imam alayhisalam was born), Sayyidina Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam was seen weeping and when asked about it Our Master said that Gibril alayhisalam had informed him that this son of his would be martyred and that Gibril had also brought him earth from that site where Imam Husayn would be martyred. So to weep for Imam Husayn alayhisalam is a Sunna!

    Some hadiths:

    (i) Tradition of Ummul Fazl.

    This is recorded in Mustadrakul Sahihayn, History of Ibne Asakir and Maqtal of Khwarizmi, other books also mention this incident.

    Ummul Fazl the daughter of Harith came to the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) and said: "O Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.), I had a dream in which I saw that a piece of your flesh flew off and fell into my lap. The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) told her, "You have seen something good, by the will of Allah, Fatima will give birth to a child and you will be present in the house."

    Later Fatima (S.A.) gave birth to Hussain (A.S.) and Ummul Fazl was present, as the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) had predicted. She placed Hussain (A.S.) in the lap of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم.), She said:

    "Thus when I saw the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) that his eyes were filled with tears. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.), may my parents be sacrificed for you, why are you weeping?'.

    He (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) replied, 'Jibraeel came to me and informed me that my people will soon murder this son of mine.'

    I asked, 'This son?'

    'Yes', he (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) replied, 'And he gave me the red dust of his grave.'

    Al-Hakim says, "This is an authentic hadith according to the standards of Bukhari and Muslim, but they have not included it in their collections."

    (ii) Tradition of Zainab Binte Jahash

    A similar type of narration has been presented in the books: Tarikh Ibne Asakir, Majmauz Zawaed, Tarikh Ibne Kathir etc:

    Zainab says: One day while Hussain (A.S.) was in my house and near me at the staircase, and then I became thoughtless. The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) entered.... He (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) said, "Let him be (as he is). The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) stretched out his hands while he was performing the prayers and took Hussain (A.S.) to him. I said, "O Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.), I have never seen you do this before?"

    He (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) said, "Jibraeel came to me and informed me that this (Hussain) will be killed by my Ummat." I requested him, "Then show me the dust of the land, where he will be killed." And he gave me some red earth.
    (iii) Tradition of Ayesha (R.A.)

    Abi Salma has been recorded in Tarikh Ibne Asakir, Maqtal Khwarizmi and Majmauz Zawaid to say:

    Ayesha (R.A.) said: The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) had seated Hussain (A.S.) upon his thigh when Jibraeel came and asked, "Is this your son?"

    "Yes", he replied.

    Jibraeel said, "But your Ummat will soon kill him after your demise."

    The eyes of the Prophet filled with tears.

    Jibraeel said, "Would you like to see the land where he shall be killed?"

    "Yes", he replied.

    Then Jibraeel showed him the fine dust of his grave.

    In another narration there is a variation where Jibraeel is reported to have indicated towards Iraq and took some red dust from it and showed it to him and said, "This is the dust from his fatal battleground."

    (iv) Tradition of Umm-e-Salma :ra:

    Mustadrakul Sahihayn, Tabaqaat Ibne Saad, Tarikh Ibne Asakir and other books have mentioned the following tradition from Umm-e-Salma (R.A.):

    The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم.) was sleeping one night when he awoke with a start. He was in a state of terror. Then again he went to sleep and once more woke up with a start. This time he was more worried. Again he went to sleep and woke up. In his hands was some red dust. He was turning it around in his hands.

    She said, "What is this dust, O Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Jibraeel informed me that this Hussain will be killed in the land of Iraq. I asked Jibraeel to show me the dust of the land where he will be killed. And this is that dust."

    Even though Rafidis may quote these hadiths too, I have heard them from SUNNI ulama.

    As for the quote from Ibn Kathir--he is one scholar and the Sunnis of the Subcontinent do not regard him a that great an authority! After all, he is the student of Ibn Taymiyya and many of his ideas are borrowed from the latter.

    As for these gatherings -which basically recount the virtues of Imam Husayn alayhisalam and the Ahlul Bayt and the events of Karbala--one fails to understand how these can cause hatred of the Sahaba! The events of 61AH are to do with Yazid the Accursed and NOT (never in Sunni gatherings) in any way an attack on his illustrious father Sayyidina Amir Muawiya :ra:. In Sunni gatherings his father is only ever mentioned with respect! As are all Sahaba. Hating the impure son does not mean we hate the father! WE are NOT Rafidis. We are not Yazidis either (like certain Deobandi scholars like Mufti Muhammad Shafi, the father of Taqi Usmani who gave his signature to the filthy book "Rashid Ibn Rashid" which tries to blame Imam Husayn for the tragedy and exonerates and praises Yazid as "Amirul Mu'mineen" (astaghfirullah) and says he was on "haqq" and disparages Imam Husayn alayhisalam as a "baghi")). If by 'persons of the early centuries' is meant Yazid Paleed then yes we do hate him and his supporters and will continue to do so.

    I would request the respected Shaykh GF Haddad -who has nothing but my respect--to read the elegy written by Shaykh Hassan Rida Khan Barelwi, brother of Shaykh ul Islam Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Barelwi, in praise of Imam Husayn's martyrdom and in refutation of Yazid and Yazidis entitled "Dhikr e Shahadat" in his diwan Zauq e Na'at.

    Ilahi ba Haqq e Bani Fatima
    Ke Bar Qawl e Iman Kuni Khatima
    Agar dawatam radd kuni wav qabool
    man o dast o daaman e Aal e Rasool
    -Shaykh Sa'di alayhirahmatullah alayhi

    May Allah unite Sunnis and protect us from the fitna of Yazidis.
    May Allah make us amongst those who are raised in Imam Husayn's company. Amin.

    wa salam
  18. Haroon

    Haroon Guest


    from the hanafi fiqh mailing list (sunnipath). Thought it was very insightful and very well written.


    <changed title to "Transmitting The Martyrdom of Imam Husayn On Ashura" - an >


    Is Transmitting The Martyrdom of Imam Husayn On Ashura Part Of The Sunna?

    Answered By Shaykh Gibril Haddad

    Wa `alaykum as-Salam wa rahmatullah:

    No. Ashura (the tenth of Muharram) is an important and great day in Islam not because of the historical events in question but because of Divine and Prophetic stipulations that concern it as part of Muharram, the holiest month after Ramadan. To follow other than those Divinely-ordained stipulations is a distraction from the proper observance of that great day that would rob its victim blind of its benefit here and hereafter, especially compounded with the added delusion that such innovation is a pious deed.

    The modality of observance of Ashura is found in the Sunna and nowhere else. And the Sunni practice on Ashura consists in fasting (an emphasized sunna that carries tremendous reward and expiation of sins); giving sadaqa (which on this day is multiplied by the days of the year); renewed generosity and kindness to one's immediate dependents; honoring and visiting the returning pilgrims to the House of Allah and asking their du'a; and visiting the Ulema and Awliya.

    As for the merits of using kohl or henna, or doing ghusl on that day: it is based on false evidence and forgeries. (The report, "Whoever dyes his eyelids with kohl on the day of Ashura shall never suffer oph­thalmia for the rest of his life" is forged by agreement of al-Hakim per al-Fayruzabadi in Sifr al-Sa`ada; Ibn al-Jawzi in the Mawdu`at; Ibn Nasir al-Din in al-Lafz al-Mukarram bi-Fadli Ashura' al-Muharram; Ibn Rajab in Lata'if al-Ma`arif; al-Sakhawi in the Maqasid; al-Haytami in the Sawa`iq al-Muhriqa; and al-Qari in the Masnu`.)

    Therefore, if by "transmitting the martyrdom" of our liege-lord Husayn (Allah be well-pleased with him) is meant the scholarly narration of those events by a qualified historian in a book or a gathering, this has been done by some past masters such as Ibn Abi al-Dunya, al-Baghawi, and Ibn Nasir al-Din in monographs and by al-Dhahabi and al-Suyuti as part of more extensive works, so it is part of Sunni history and education.

    However, if by such transmission is meant a public discourse or a book commemorating those events for specific emotional or purportedly religious purposes then the Ulema have said that this is ignorance and the door of fitna and jahiliyya because it fosters un-Islamic expressions of mourning and divisive hatred of some of the Companions of the Prophet and other early Muslims from the centuries praised by the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, all of which is haram. Nor has such commemoration been Sunni practice at all - even for the death of the Holy Prophet, whose passing from this world is a much greater loss - whether on Ashura or any other time of the year.

    As for love of Ahl al-Bayt it is an integral of Sunni belief but in a Sunni way, not a sectarian way chock-full with ill feelings fanned by fabrications. Ibn Kathir said in al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya (8:201-202):

    Al-Tabarani mentioned in this chapter very strange reports indeed and the Shi`a went overboard concerning the day of Ashura, forging many hadiths that are gross lies such as the sun being eclipsed on that day until the stars appeared, no stone was lifted except blood was seen under it, the celestial region became red, the sun and its rays seemed like blood, the sky seemed like a blood clot, the stars were hurling against one another, the sky rained red blood, there was never redness in the sky before that day, and the like... among other lies and forgeries of which not one report is sound."

    Success is from Allah, may He keep us on the path of His Prophet and his Companions, away from sectarianism and bad adab posing as love of Ahl al-Bayt.

    Hajj Gibril
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page