View of Pir Karam Shah Saheb?

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by muslim 1st Sunni 2nd, Jul 12, 2011.

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  1. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    I asked brother Muhammad Ali to provide as much detail as possible exaclty what it is that Syed Irfan Shah Saheb (not anyone else, not Syed Zubair Tabassum) finds problematic regarding Pir Karam Shah Saheb. I have yet to see anything substantial just comments on verbal conversations without any quotes or references.

    If only this principle was applied to every other individual who calls himself a Muslim but not from the Brelvi or Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat.
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    m. ali's post above has answered the original query. irfan shah sahib does not consider pir karam shah sahib a kafir. that is the default position anyway, i.e. if someone calls themself a muslim, as of course pir karam shah sahib did, we consider them a muslim and it is a heinous crime to accuse any muslim of making takfir, more so if it's a scholar like irfan shah sahib.

    until someone can provide proof that one calls the other a kafir, case closed. if you are unsure of a matter, don't adopt a position and come out all guns blazing. you end up spending time refuting someone that doesn't hold the position anyway. you also create su' al-dhann in the minds of all readers.
  3. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    Syed Irfan Shah Sahib have not called them a Kafir. I have even asked them myself and they don't regard them a Kafir.

    As for m1st reply, what a waste of time. You asked me to reply and when I did quoting Jamal E Karam etc you totally ignored it. What a waste of time.

    Also when you named some scholars including Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib Ra, we are talking about Qasim Nanotvi here and his Tehzeer un Naas. Do you consider Qasim Nanotvi a muslim?
  4. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    where has irfan shah sahib called pir karam shah sahib a kafir, m1s2?
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  5. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Creature 1st human 2nd, human 1st muslim 2nd, muslim 1st sunni 2nd, wahabi 1st ahle hadith 2nd etc - Is there some agenda behind your user name selection? After all it depends on from which side you are being viewed from. If amongst kuffar I will identify myself as a muslim first, and if amongst muslims then I will identify myself as Sunni to identify my beliefs!

    Sorry that this is slightly off topic...
  6. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    This is not a political game it's much much more serious than that.

    I'm seeing one good out of this in the fact that people are realising what is important and actually coming together uniting on the core principles of the Ahle Sunnah and establishing a network which actually adresses the issues/concerns and serves the community at large.
  7. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    Pir Karam Shah is nothing but a dust particle in comparison to the Sahaba Radiallahu Anhum Ajma'een. However, amongst scholars of the last century through his academic works, forging links with Al-Azhar, tireless work in creating an Islamic institute of repute, relentless lobbying for the denouncement of the Qadiyani faith he is a shining light which cannot be distinguished because the guiding lamps such as Zia-un-Nabi and Zia-ul-Quran have embedded the love for the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and the correct beleifes of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat in so many hearts and will contiinue to do so as his works are translated in English and other languages.

    Pir Karam Shah Saheb, Pir Mehr Ali Shah, Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri, Pir Saeed Ahmed Kazmi, Hazrat Shah Ahmed Noorani, Pir Alauddin Siddiqui and others do not engage in blanket takfir of everyone. They have a different outlook and mindset whereby every individual is treated on merit, mere association, lineage and labels do not automatically place one out of the fold of Islam. If we all continue going by labels and association then what chance of reconciliation is there? if we choose not to explore going behind the labels (something we request of the opposition to do) then how can we even begin to understand the differences?

    There are many people affiliated with the Deoband circle who do not believe that our beloved Prophet has the status of an elder brother but do believe he is the best of creations, do believe that our beloved Prophet has knowledge of the unseen, do believe our Prophet to be the final messenger and Seal of Prophets and that no other new Prophet can emerge. They also deny that their elders wrote insulting statements.

    What lies in a person's heart is what really matters not what he/she thinks about a 13th century scholar.
  8. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    Can you name these scholars and we'll see how many of these have the respect, quality of writing and intellect of Pir Karam Shah Saheb.

    Can you also provide a list of written material against Pir Karam Shah Saheb from within the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat.
  9. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    Has anyone from the Mashadi/Jalali camp had the decency to approach Pir Amin-ul-Hasant or Pir Imdad Hussain to raise their concerns?
  10. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    If you start quoting Deobandi literature then you might as well start addressing all the allegations against Ala Hazrat in books such as faisla kun Munzira etc.
  11. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    Firslty, no one is denying anyone any rights. If something is wrong then there is no harm in stating an opinion in an amicable academic manner once all avenues of investigation and research have been exhausted just as Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih demonstrated.

    The quote above is as contradictory as they come. Can you please elaborate on the exact written statement that Syed Irfan Shah disagrees on. The emphasis always lies on the claimant to prove his/her claim.
  12. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Don't know anything about this issue. Its news to me. I'll have to check it up with people of knowledge.
  13. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    As Brother The Emir said the problem is his very soft corner for Deobandis. He praised Qasim Nanotivs Tehzeer un Naas saying its such a great book that everything I read it I get new meanings.

    Then when he was pressurized by Sunni Scholars then he did ruju (some people say) saying that whatever is written in this book is Kuffar.

    Deobandi Khalid Mehmood in his book Mutala Bareliwiyat quoted Pir Sahib praising the book and then latter changing his view. I have heard from Ulema that Khalid Mehmood again wrote on the ibarat of Pir Karam Shah Sahib saying that how can you say what is written in this book is Kuffar? When you first said whenever you read this book you learn new meanings etc?

    This issue was quietened down but thanks to Pir Amin ul Hasanat Shah Sahib, few years back a book was published from Bhera Sharif. The books name is Jamal E Karam which is in 3 chapters, in this book their are sayings of Pir Karam Shah Sahib compiled together. This book is endorsed by Pir Amin ul Hasanat Shah Sahib, in that book Ulema say their are hundreds of dangerous ibarats.

    In Jamal E Karam it is clearly written that Pir Sahib did not do ruju on Tehzeer un Naas. Also its written that a person who insults the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, calling him a Gustakh E Rasool, that's old days now that times gone.

    Some Ulema have problems with the Tafseer Zia ul Qur'an. I can assure you its not only these 3 or 4 scholars against them rather their are a lot more.

    When these Scholars are asked whats the point highlighting this now, they say look their is a lot of written stuff against him. When he was around their wasn't Youtube then. The Ulema are saying their is a lot available. Which some ulema are even going to go through and read it on the internet now from his books.

    Pir Syed Irfan Shah Sahib does not call Pir Karam Shah Sahib a Kafir but does disagree with what he has written. He has all the right to because he is a Sunni Scholar and has even met Pir Karam Shah Sahib himself.

    What is Pir Karam Shah Sahib infront of Sahaba? Imams of the Ahlus Sunnah? Imams like Imam Ghazzali? When people like Abdul Qadir Shah can attack them, they seem to have a lot of respect for Pir Karam Shah Sahib and Dr Tahir ul Qadri.

    If you look at both of them, Dr Tahir ul Qadri and Pir Karam Shah Sahib are similar. Even though I did not want all this to come out but since it has, you will very soon see Ulema showing Pir Karam Shah Sahib ibarats and errors that they have differences on.

    Also I have noticed that Abdul Qadir Shah Sahib and his lot are using this to get bhera sharif lot support. I was speaking to one of the main guys at bhera sharif and he said we do not have any contact or support Abdul Qadir Shah for his attacks on Sahaba and Awliyah. They said even though Mufti Abid Jalali is against us, Wallah we will still support him in the debate rather Abdul Qadir Shah Sahib.
  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

  15. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    I've heard about this allegation against Zia-ul-Ummat Pir Karam Shah Saheb but I've never read anything against Pir Sahib quoting any of his written work. The only thing I heard was that he took a soft line with some Deobandis but once their writings were brought to his attention he changed his stance to that of other Sunni Ulema.
  16. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    The silence says everything ... normally there's a quick response or even a video on youtube.

    Some people have gone too far and scholars here and abroad are now realising who is really sincerely working for the betterment of our community and who isn't. The weight and quality of Zia-ul-Ummat's literature is nothing but proof of the state of his faith.

    This is where we have to take a step back and think about the blanket takfir label we give to others. We just cannot label someone a non-muslim based on their opinion about people living hundred years ago. Yes, we can and should ask them about their personal opinion about the issue of concern namely the status of the Prophet or the validity of the finality of Prophethood and determine whether their beliefs are in line with our religion. But I fail to see how a person can be labelled a kaafir if they themself do not harbour kufriya beliefs in their hearts.

    I don't see how doing takfir of a scholar well respected and renowned worldwide who passed away many years ago will benefit anyone? I fail to see a single positive to come out of this. Controversy and division springs to mind amongst many other negatives.
  17. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    Where is Muhammad Ali, Kattar Sunni and co? This is a serious issue and we need a clear stance from Syed Irfan Shah Saheb, we are not interested in anyone else's viewpoint.

    Does Shah Saheb consider Zia-ul-Ummat Pir Karam Shah Saheb to have passed away as a kaafir?

    I hate to even utter these words in the same sentence but to be frank important people really need to know what his views are, it's time we united and certain scholars are now seeing the light of day.
  18. tauseef52

    tauseef52 New Member

  19. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member


    There are a lot of people claiming that Syed Irfan Shah Saheb has done takfir of Pir Karam Shah Saheb. Can anyone of his followers confirm if this is true if so, on what basis does Shah Saheb say this?

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