When does Istighaatha fall under Kufr or Shirk?

sorry this was meant to be for the point brother MuhammadAli is making (of ibadah to other than Allah in and of itself not being shirk). Not the question which i asked earlier in that post.

 

Jazakallah khayr for summarizing my understanding.

 

I think what brother MuhammadAli is saying that these actions are kufr but nor shirk as not every kufr is shirk. Prostrating to a statue regardless of the intention is kufr for sure but doesn't necessarily mean it is shirk as well (according to the brother).

But I have a few questions.
Brother MuhammadAli said that ibadah is not shirk but rather the affirmation of Godhood which precedes ibadah, meaning that one first affirms something to be God and then worships it (such as in idol). But with all due respect, the defintion of ibadah is that "submitting to a being whilst considering him God". So there's "whilst" here. Wouldn't this imply that because the condition of ibadah is the affirmation of a God then necessitated ibadah to other than Allah also being shirk, since you are submitting to other than Allah "whilst" considering him a God. So though person who worships other than Allah commits shirk before he performed the actions of ibadah, the actual ibadah still doesn't cease to be shirk. It is also shirk. This is a question by the way. Wouldn't this be true?
Also, why would this be the case since one could make an argument that since ibadah is
"submitting to a being whilst considering him God" then a kafir (or a murtad) could potentially be a muwwahhid despite his kufr. Since he might be affirming that only Allah is worthy of worship but might disrespect the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam so be a kafir but due to his affirmation that only Allah is the real God, might be a muwwahhid. I feel like these kind of these, that get a bit too technical, can cause wierd thoughts to arise in the minds of the common people like myself and so should be discussed with utmost caution. But still, this was a question that came in my mind so though to ask.
Also, why is there a need to discuss such a fine detail? With all due respect, I think most of us were not even thinking that deep but are now on the verge of questioning the basics of tawhid and shirk. Khuda na khwasta.

 

I don't want your apology and i will certainly not be spending hours searching for resources to cite to you until i get someone with academic background contesting what i wrote. You my brother are not worth that much academic effort.

I will keep it simple:

Tawheed n Shirk are fundamentally of two types Zaat, Sifaat, and if you want to expand Sifaat, than you get third, A'faal (actions). What is Ibadah part of, Tawheed Zaat, or Tawheed Sifaat, or Afaal? If it is part of neither than it cannot be Shirk. Its that simple.

It takes no Allamah level learning to know n come to this conclusion. Just some basic knowledge of Tawheed and Shirk. I fear you lack that much basic knowledge of Tawheed/Shirk.

I cannot help you more than this.

 

ok. please bring your references and sources and i promise i will apologize and retract publicly. remember, you posted first, and i was only responding. so you bring your references and sources first.

at least you have an excuse of bad english!

i dunno, maybe i'm getting old and don't get the joke, so i'll just state clearly, i'm not a tahirul padri fanboy.

 

Tawheed n Shirk are fundamentally of two types Zaat and Sifaat. I am sure you know that much basics. What is Ibadah part of Tawheed Zaat, or Tawheed Sifaat? What i am asking is, is Ibadah an attribute of Allah or part of His Essence?

If it is neither than my great Imam with great learning, how can Ibadah be Shirk? I am just an ordinary idiot but since you are the resident guardian of true understanding Tawheed and Shirk i thought i run pass your greatness cluttered idiotic thoughts of my mind. No pressure.

 

You have reached end of your academic worth.

I was also stating Fiqhi rulings of Sunni scholarship which you termed idiotic. When you get all ur Minhaj police together I will cite my sources. For now I am content with being the lone idiot with half baked knowledge.

 

rulings in books of fiqh are not "stories"

i prefer the other brothers articulate better and tell you why your posts are blunders, again, to put it mildly.

 

Brother keep your focus. Concentrate. And tell me why it is Shirk. I know you have a lot of knowledge of Usool and Tawheed and Shirk so kindly educate me.

 

Tell me why Ibadah is Shirk not stories about this n that is Kufr.

 

you'd do well to relay the rulings of the elders rather than act like a super mufti yourself, and stay silent when you don't know something, or haasha wa kallaa try to utter "i don't know". half baked knowledge coupled with arrogance never did anyone any good, much less Sunnis!

 

firstly, don't try sarcasm in the english language when you clearly are not as fluent as you like to display.

secondly, there are certain sayings and actions that incur takfir if done deliberately regardless of intention or beliefs -

it is kufr to put the cross in one's neck or tie the zunnar, even if one later on says he was doing it to mock christians. prostrating to idols or "asking" them comes under the same ruling. according to some Hanafis like Abdur Razzaq Halabi (rahimahullah), even prostrating to grave warrants takfir, regardless of intention.

 

Your highness n the mightiness:

1) Which component of asking an idol to help is Shirk that hasn't already been warranted by affirmation of Ilahiyyah even before the worship started?

2) Do you establish Tawheed and Shirk on i) iqrar bil lisaan and tasdeeq bil qalb ii) or Ibadah?

3) Out of two which precedes which?

 

How is that your greatness?

 

The first part is idiotic, to put it nicely

 

Learn your Deen n the Usool of Ahlus Sunnah. I have done my due diligence u should too.

What exactly have i wrote is problematic? Don't hold back the wrath of inadequate Minhaj police.

 

Bro don't respond to queries if you're not fully adept in the masail you're dabbling with.

Fiqhi points are not made by such ott rhetorical comments.

You've made a nonsensical fiqh claim in your attempt to come out as a kalam champion!

I won't respond, will just let the other brothers correct you.

 

You mean a statue:

"I am talking about a hypothetical scenario, where someone asks a statue believing the statue to be a creation of Allah and says "this statue is only a creation, it doesn't have intrinsic capabilities, it will give but only with the will of Allah, it is not qadeem or wajib ul wujud, it is contingent, it is not God" and then asks it for help, would this be shirk al akbar or not?"

No its not Shirk. Corner stone of major Shirk is CREED; AFFIRMATION OF ILAHIYYAH. When ilahiyyah is present (ie ascribed to a creation) than every form help sought is worship and worship of ghayr of Allah is major Kufr. In absence of explicitly affirmed Ilahiyyah or implicitly deduced Ilahiyyah there can be no major Shirk, or worship.

Seeking HELP, of natural, or of supernatural type, none of it is Shirk. Shirk is affirmation of Ilahiyyah, Rububiyyah .... for a creation.

 

Lets replace idol with something else in your question because IDOL by default is an ilah, god, mabud.

Lets assume your question was about statue:

"I have heard that asking statue for help with the belief that it will give with the will of Allah is shirk al akbar.
Can anyone please explain why (principly) it would be shirk al akbar? Because the definition of shirk is that something falls under if it means association with the dhaat (worshiping another or considering another to be wajib ul wujud) or in sifaat (mentioned below from the pdf shared by mawlana aqdas sahab in another thread about tawhid and shirk)."

YOU HEARD WRONG. IT IS NOT SHIRK BUT STUPID FOR SURE. Whoever told u this needs to learn Tawheed n Shirk and ome taught by Muslims n not of Kafirs.

Shirk is only warranted when a creation is ascribed Ilahiyyah/godhood to. This ascription can be direct as in, jesus is my lord/god, or indirectly, as in; the universe is eternal never came to exist it was always here.

Like i said before, seeking help from an idol doesn't make u Mushrik, n not seeking it doesn't make ur Tawheed safe. You can believe a statue, banana, jesus to be god n not seek anything from them n only seek from Allah n still be purest of mushriks on earth.

 

That's not an idol then, is it?