When was RasulAllah ﷺ granted nubuwwah?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Abdushakoor, Feb 26, 2023.

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  1. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  2. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    I have no issue accepting the truth. I have no issue in accepting Allama Saeed Asad is wrong on this matter if it is proved so. My loyalty lies with the truth. I say this sincerely
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  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    brother, i am hoping you will be soon included in the 'we' above...and mawlana saeed asad sahib as well. in sha'Allah wa bi tawfiqih.

    : )
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  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mawlana saeed sahib says:

    nabi kahte kise haiN

    nabi ke liye 3 sharToN ka hona zaruri hai, teen shartoN ka.

    pahle number par, ke woh bashar ho. koyi ghayr e bashar nabi nahiN ho sakta. rasul ho saktey haiN. lekin nabiy ke liye zaruri kya hai, ke woh kya ho, bashar ho. bahar e shariat safah 10 utha ke dekh leN.

    doosra. waHy ke baghayr nubuwwat nahiN milti. nabiy kis se banta hai. waHy se. jab tak waHy nahiN aati nabi nahiN ban'ta. do sharteN.

    aur teesri shart kya hai. ke uske aage ummat bhi ho. Allah ka paygham us par aaye - aur woh aagey kisi ko pahuNchaye.

    ye teen sharTeN hoN to shar'an phir usko nabi kaha jata hai.

    aur ye teenoN sharTeN aalam e arwaaH meiN to nahiN payi gayiN thi na? sarkar us waqt bashari Haalat meiN nahiN the. sarkar par waHy nahiN aayi thi. aur nabiy karim alayhi's salatu wa's salam ke liye Allah ne koyi ummat bhi muqarrar nahiN ki thi ke inko paygham sunaO mera.



    who is called a prophet?

    there are 3 conditions necessary for a prophet.

    1. he should be human. a non-human cannot be a prophet. they can be messengers [rasul], but it is necessary for a prophet to be human. check page no.10 in bahar e shariat.

    2. without revelation [waHy] one does not RECEIVE prophethood. what makes one a prophet? revelation [waHy]. UNTIL revelation is received one does not BECOME a prophet. that makes two conditions. [emphasis mine]

    3. and what is the third condition? that there should be his followers too. the message of Allah ta'ala comes to him [i.e. prophet] and he [the prophet] will forward the [message] to the followers.

    if these three conditions are met, then by Divine Law (shariah) he is called a prophet.

    and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH], isn't it? because our Master was not in his human state at that time. our Master had not received any revelation. and for our Noble Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam - Allah ta'ala had not ordained [muqarrar] a group of followers [ummat] and commanded: 'deliver My message to them'.

    there are a few objections on this speech.

    the first condition is as stated in bahar e shariat. no objection on that one, and no argument concerning that.

    the second condition...um...i do not like the way `allamah sahib phrased it. let us go back to bahar e shariat for this one.

    bahar, v1p29.jpg

    this translates to:

    for one to be a prophet, it is necessary that he should receive revelation [waHy] - whether it is [delivered] by an angel or he receives without any intermediary.

    blink and you will miss it.

    allamah sahib said: "without revelation [waHy] one does not RECEIVE prophethood." this specifically means that UNTIL revelation is received that person is not a prophet. and he emphasises it in the next sentence: "UNTIL revelation is received one does not BECOME a prophet."

    of course, he has phrased it in this manner because it suits his position.

    now, if RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam BECAME a prophet AFTER receiving revelation in hiraa - then what about the first hadith in sahih bukhari titled: "the beginning of revelation" it is a lengthy hadith, and i quote just the portion that is relevant to our discussion;bukhari, hadith #4953 [again this is in bab al-tafsir, and i have selected this version for the commentary that follows]:

    bukhari, 4953a.jpg

    now, in this hadith, it is said that the beginning of revelation to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was in the form of true dreams. a few questions:

    1. were these dreams prior or after the 40th year?

    2. were these dreams prior or after the revelation in cave hira?

    3. it is a well-known and accepted position that the dreams of prophets are also waHy; are these dreams waHy?

    4. if it were before the 40th year, was he a prophet THEN? or did he BECOME a prophet ONLY after the event in cave hira where he received what is known as the first revelation [first is relative and subjective. it means first from the qur'an. wAllahu a'alam.]? if not, why not?

    imam ibn Hajar explaining this writes: [fat'H al-bari vol.11/p.105]


    even if one says that the dreams were in the 40th year, the claim that he was MADE a prophet in cave hira doesn't stand. because in the above passage ibn Hajar says: "the beginning of the advent of waHy was dreams" and then adds, "however those signs that absolutely proved his being a prophet were long before this; things such as salutation of stone as found in the hadith of muslim etc."

    the question is, when those stones/pebbles saluted RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, what did they say?

    let us have a quick look on what imam ayni has to say in his umdat al-qari v19, p438:

    umdatqari v19p438.jpg

    "...otherwise, the proof of prophethood [dalayil al-nubuwwah] had appeared in him long before; such as hearing from baHirah the monk, and hearing near the ka'abah: 'fasten your lower garment [izar] and saluting of the stone."

    so when we refer to the hadith of sahih muslim #2277:

    muslim, 2277.jpg

    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "verily i recognize the stone in makkah which saluted me BEFORE I WAS SENT FORTH (ub'ath) and verily, i recognise/know it [even] now."

    the question here is more difficult: why did RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam say: 'before i was sent forth" i.e. 'biythah' and not 'before i was given prophethood?'

    and baHirah recognised WHO? prophet or not-prophet?

    it should be known that in arabic when they use 'before prophethood' they mean, before biythah; not that he was a non-prophet and THEN he was given prophethood and THEN he became a prophet at 40.

    [to be continued, in sha'Allah]

    wAllahu a'alam wa ilmuhu atam.

    Attached Files:

  5. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Shaykh Abu Hasan, when you say 'we say' it should be avoided when referring to the urdu does we mean Ala Hazrat, or have scholars debated it recently.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there are some more things that i plan to write, in sha'Allah; but let us get a few quick Qs out of the way:

    see biythah بعثة is the word used to describe it. but i don't think this is the main issue. it has been simmering for some time now; the contention is that some people say that he was MADE a prophet after 40; we say, he was ordained a prophet before the creation of hazrat Aadam alayhi's salam, but he was sent forth to announce his prophethood at the age of 40.

    this may not make sense to those who don't understand urdu, and they may wonder what the brouhaha is all about.

    anyway, in urdu, '40 saal ke baad nubuwwat mili' is an expression we say should be avoided. nubuwwat to pahle se mili thi; lekin jab umr sharif 40 baras ki huwi tab biysat huwi aur iylan e nubuwwat kiya.

    i will comment on this in a separate post; i have a few objections on allamah sahib's claims in this portion.

    it was not a 'promise'. it was GRANTED in aalam e arwah or even before it. wAllahu a'alam.

    to the best of my knowledge, this is a matter of fadayil and interpretation of hadith. but neither is wiping on mests or mawlid or tawassul or qaSidah burdah.

    if this is not contested and put to rest, this will open a door of fitnah among ahl al-sunnah which will only become worse and worser. if you do not believe me, look at the wahabis and devbandis - every successive generation lowers the bar further. nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.

    besides, this erroneous position is very shaky - i do not understand why mawlana saeed sahib and some others favour a losing position.

    well. this was an issue of academic interest and discussed/debated among ulama. now that it is in the mainstream, we ought to take a stand and clarify it.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    will try to finish other posts tonight inshaAllah. Isaac, you should wait until i finish post # 19 by sidi Abu Hasan, no rush please because i might make some mistakes and correct them later. it will also be good if you forward all the posts consolidated so that molana sahab can ignore duplicates etc.
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    please wait because i'm correcting errors in my posts.
  9. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Just fyi. I am passing on all translations as soon as they appear.
    Jzk for the effort brother Noori
  10. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    There are people who read English. however, I doubt their command of the language would be good enough to fully comprehend what Shaykh Abu Hasan has written.
  11. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Excuse my ignorance ya sheikh, but what is the issue
    with Saeed Assad Saab stating that the duties that come with being a Nabi were given in Ghar e Hira after wahi?
    (He mentions three conditions of being a Nabi extracted from Bahar e Shariat @ 10mins in the video.)
    Even though the promise and announcement of being a Nabi were given in Aalam e Arwa.
  12. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    It'd be better if there was someone bilingual close to mawlana saeed asad who can read abu Hasan's posts, translate the gist to Mawlana and then Mawlana can respond in urdu.
    Noori likes this.
  13. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Salaam. Thank you for allowing me to join this forum.
    I have spoken to Allama Saeed Asad and they have asked if it is possible for Shaykh Abu Hasan to ring them so they can discuss the differences. I can provide their mobile number. That would be the easiest way. If that is not an option maybe an attachment in urdu as opposed to the English with scanned documents and then I will request they respond to that in urdu.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    explaining what wajabat means, zurqani says:

    sharh mawahib2.jpg

    wajabat means: 'obtained and established'
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i need to listen again to check the reference. meanwhile, let us continue with some more quotes.

    in mawahib, the hadith is quoted from musnad imam ahmad, imam bukhari in his tarikh, and Hilyah of abu nu'aym with the words: "kunta" / when were you a prophet...?

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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    oh, you meant his mentioning this in the clip. ok.
  17. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    He mentions Kazmi Saab rahimaullahu at 8-10mins and again at 20-21mins.
    He then quotes the definition of a nabi according to the sheikh..
    "Al risalatu baynAllahi wa bayna 'ibadihi" @ 28:50-29:20

    At 16:16-17:00mins he quotes from Matla ul Qamarayn.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    quotes what and from where.

    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  19. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Allamah Saeed Assad Saab quotes Ala Hazrat and Ghazali e Zaman (rahimahumullahu) to support his opinion, any thoughts?
  20. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Assalaamu alaikum..
    Is there a legitimate difference of opinion on this matter?
    Also is this a matter from amongst the Daruriaat e ahlus sunnah?
    JazakAllahu khaira

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