which day is superior - 9th dhu'l hijjah or yawm arafah?

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 19, 2021.

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  1. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    It would be good if this message (along with supporting points) could be written in Urdu by someone so it could be shared on social media.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    technically there is no relation between eid and yawm arafah; in fact, those visiting yawm arafah, i.e., those on hajj, do not go to pray eid namaz.

    eid is on the 10th of dhu'l hijjah.

    yawm arafah is on the day hujjaj assemble on arafah.
    superiority of the day is NOT for 9th dhu'l hijjah per se, though it coincides meaning arafah day = 9th dhu'l hijjah.
    because: suppose by mistake, people assemble on 8th or 10th on arafah assuming it to be 9th. if it is proven later that those who assembled on arafah had done so either on 8th or on the 10th - it will STILL be deemed valid. meaning the yawm arafah is on the day people assemble on arafah.

    fazilat - superiority - is due to the DAY of arafah. i.e. when people assemble on arafah.

    i don't know why this is so difficult to understand. i have argued at lenght with some bright muftis but they get stuck on 9th.
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  3. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Is Eid ul Adha the 10th of dhu'l hijjah or the day after yawm arafah?
  4. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Bump (tweet/thread is applicable this year)
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    strange. it's from your service provider i'm assuming?

    on a related and expected note, one dear mufti sahib on my contacts list put this status on his whatsapp :)

    Attached Files:

  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Within these 10 days, yaum-e-'Arafah is the most meritorious for the following reasons:
    (ii) the ayah (5:3) "Today I have perfected your religion ...." was revealed at 'Arafat during hajjat al-wada
    since the laws of religion were perfected this day (and days of hajj were finally restored to the month of dhu'l hijjah). It is narrated from both Sayyiduna Umar (radiAllahu anhu) and Sayyiduna ibn Abbas (radiAllahu anhuma) that this day gains its pre-eminence due to it being the day of perfection of religion.

    (iii) standing on the plains of 'Arafat by pilgrims and Allah's (azza wa'jal) special mercy reserved for this day
    a narration from ad-Dahhak ends as ".... if someone fasts on the day of 'Arafa, while at home with his family, he has effectively fasted for one year in front of him, and one year behind"


    for reason (ii), [by my limited reasoning] 9th of dhu'l hijjah gains eminence as day (i.e. the day/occasion is of higher significance than the place itself)
    for (iii), yaum-e-'Arafah as observed by pilgrims, with significance stemming from wuqoof in the appointed place while in the act of performing hajj. By extension, bounties and mercy are also availed by non-pilgrims.


    Since muslims across the world and over the ages (until the technology could inform them of days of pilgrimage) have been fasting on 9th dhu'l hijjah, I see no reason why this shouldn't continue
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Ghunyat ut-Talibeen discusses the significance of yaum-e-'Arafah (and its fasting) in great length (covered in discourse 8 & 9, Vol 3 of al-Baz's English translation). True (as @abu Hasan quoted few), all references & hadiths cited mention yaum-e-'Arafah, rather than 9th dhu'l hijjah.

    Below, I paraphrase the sections from Ghunya. Broadly (and very briefly) speaking, yaum-e-'Arafah's eminence stems from 3 key reasons:

    (i) more generally, being part of the 1st ashra of dhu'l hijjah; [this is not being argued/debated here. I have included it for completeness]
    besides the most prevailing interpretation for Surah al-Fajr, there are several narrations extolling the merits of 1st ashra for reasons commemorating events such as acceptance of Sayyiduna Adam's (alayhis salaam) repentance, Sayyiduna Musa (alayhis salaam) being honoured with intimate coversation, Sayyiduna Dawud's (alayhis salaam) forgiveness, beginning of iftitah (revelation of the Qur'an), bai'at ar-ridwan etc.

    I AM UNABLE TO POST MY RESPONSE IN FULL DUE TO "INTERNAL SERVER ERROR". Strangely enough, I managed to bypass the repeated error message only after I dropped the word "jew" from my post
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    similarly, a common confusion:

    ayyam al-tashriq = 11,12,13 according to jumhur (some have included 10th as well but the first opinion is preferred)

    however takbir of tashriq is on 5 days: 9th fajr to 13th asr.

    9th - yawm `arafah
    10th - yawm al-naHr
    11,12,13 - ayyam al-tashriq
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    just so no one else mixes it up, my error was conflating the Yaum of Arafah (day, which obviously ends with Maghreb of 9th Dhil Hijjah) with the Wuqoof of Arafah (stay) for which time extends till the Fajr of the 10th.

    this is what happens when you stay away from books or specific topics for extended periods of time. May Allah forgive us all.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    jazak Allah. my bad. i mixed up initially in post #3 and took "dhalna" with incorrect meaning later.
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    because it has removed the impediment.
    do we still use earth to clean - despite free availability of soap?

    some of the old considerations are still applicable, some have been resolved - why not take what is available?
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is from the hadith (given below is a reference from al-durr al-manthur, v2 p456 / surah baqarah, 2:203) other references in the footnotes.

    durr manthur, v2p456.png
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    apologies brother. i was thinking of laggards like myself and i said it in a casual tone. please ignore it.

    however saHabah saying that it is the 27th night does not mean it is certainly the 27th night. one probably has to look up some material on this and especially the hadith in which RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam did not disclose the details about that night and commanded us to "find" it in the last 10 days - or the odd nights of the last 10 days.

    some sufiyah have said that it changes every year and some have said that it is not even restricted to ramadan. i do not dispute that 27th is considered as the most likely laylatu'l qadr.

    but the fazilat is not tied to a specific date - as there is no consensus. therefore, you can celebrate meelad any day you like.

    perhaps you should refer to the work ibn uyun al-athar of ibn sayyid al-naas or some other tafsir that argues about various dates. in summary: there is no way one can arrive at THIS date by calculation. however, due to the athar that says he SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam passed away on the same day as his day of birth - and by calculation it is the 12th of rabiy al-awwal (see footnotes in light of sight..)


    10th of muHarram is aashura'a. there is logic in it if you reflect upon it.

    a beautiful anecdote:

    ibn al-attar is imam nawawi's student who said that imam nawawi's father himself told him this story:

    imam nawawi was a small child of about 7 years and he was sleeping next to his father. he woke up in the middle of the night on the 27th of ramadan and said: 'father! what is the light that i see which has filled the house?' and then he woke up the rest of the household - and none of them could see anything. his father says: "i realised that it must be laylatu'l qadr."

    yes. alHamdulillah.

    ibn rajab mentions this in his lata'if:

    latayif ibn rajab p482a.png


    it is not a printing mistake.

    "aftaab dhalna se" - is not "aaftab ghurub honaiy se". it refers to the start of the time of dhuhr; when the sun begins to 'go down' - i.e. after mid day.

    and as you can notice in the mas'ala itself which speaks of hajj becoming invalid if one does not go to `arafah before the dawn of 10th (i.e. if they have not gone there earlier and done wuquf).

    wuquf of muzdalifah is sunnah. if one does not go to muzdalifah before fajr, it is a sunnah that is missed. there is no penalty.

  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Without technological enablements, it would be nearly impossible for those located far away to ascertain which days hajjis are observing as yaum-e-Arafah. Why would advent of technology change the situation, i.e. make the saum on yaum-e-Arafah more superior than on 9th DH?

    In few locations (in Americas), (if Saudis were not doing khayanat with moonsighting) the hijri date would habitually be a day earlier. In that case, the yaum-e-Arafah would be Eid day (10th DH) in those locations, making fasting prohibitive.

    There's no doubt about the superiority of yaum-e-Arafah (due to hajj), but practical considerations would mean that the fadhilat of fasting FOR yaum-e-Arafat extends to non-hajjis on 9th DH.


    Another practical compromise would be to fast on 7th, 8th & 9th DH (or all of first nine days), as few people tend to observe.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ... and thats why a mid-way, compound opinion is possible (by those in a position to issue rulings)

    if it was a case of halal or haram, it would have to be one or the other
  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    oh come on bro.

    Eid, Aashuraa, and Laylatul Qadr are time specific wherever you're stationed. If you're stationed in los angeles with the sun shining, you're obviously not in the "layl" of Makkah or Karachi

    Arafah is time AND place specific,

    unless you want to make the point that Arafah is time and place specific only for the Haji and only time specific for the non-Haji, which is what @sherkhan is alluding to
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    sorry bhaijan im not on a pc so cant check the pdf book in qn, but it seems what you cited is Wuqoof of Muzdalifah - 9ween Dhil Hijjah kay aftab dhalne se 10ween ke tuloo3e Fajr tak

    Unless theres a printing mistake or a mistake in my understanding...

    "9ween kay aftab dhalne se" is effectively the start of the 10th Dhil Hijjah, and running until the Fajr of the 10th is precisely the time of the wuqoof in Muzdalifah
  18. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    If eid can be different for different localities or countries as proven from fiqh of sahaba, and their statements , why can't ashura arafah and layt ul qadr. To be fixated do you fast on ashura or 10th muharram is totally absurd way of thinking. Laylatul qadr is it one time per year according to sahaba or several times.. so look at the timezones Honolulu to mumbai to Seoul...
  19. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    Day of birth aka meelad day does have fazilat as proven by fact monday sallallahu alayhi wa salam used to fast. Why majority have accepted 12 because based on calculations it falls on monday of rabi al awwal.

    Now alluding to fast on yawn arafah or on the 9th it is saying like do you fast on ashura or the 10th muharram. No logic at all.

    As for laylatul qadr some sahabis did say it is 27th night so the question about being lazy is totally disrespectful and unwarranted.
  20. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    My point is rather simple which AQ & ramiz have already alluded to.

    In the days of yore when people of distant lands had no way of knowing when the hajj had commenced, then the so-called day of arafah wasn't applicable to them. The deen (as the Prophet, sallallahu alayhis wasallam, himself described) is meant to be simple to practice (without the aid of telegram, telephone etc.)

    9th of DH being called yaum-e-arafah is probably a matter of association. Wuqoof is for hajjis and the day of Arafah (and its fadhilat) is for hajjis. Based on the acceptance of wuqoof and dua/repentance by hajjis, the entire ummah avails the mercy. For non-hajjis, the fadhilat of fasting is for 9th Dhul Hijjah (as simple practice would dictate).

    I am no scholar, nor I have read widely; but I have never come across any book which specifically/explicitly say that the fasting is as per 9th DH for hajjis (and that people globally need to follow Makkan date to observe fast on day of arafah). In the absence of explicit text, the general urf will probably prevail.

    Likewise the the odd night of Qadr, which are commemorated on different days across the globe. Do the angels and Sayyiduna Jibril (alayhis salaam) descend on only one night universally, or do they descend as per local date?

    Similarly the time of sunrise and sunset being the time when the hell-fire is being rekindled. Would this time be as per Makkah?
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021

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