whither away blows the wind?

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by AbdalQadir, Apr 9, 2015.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i know you made your last comments, so i too have no desire to fan any inter-personal flames between us living room mujahideen. i honestly do believe you are a sincere person in your capacity as a Sunni aam aadmi; and it's great if you see where i'm coming from, if not, it's still no biggie. i will just respond to some points you raised and i too will sign off this thread - only to clarify the contexts. you seem to have some contexts mixed up, at least in regards to my posts.


    ok in those charlie hebdo post days, i saw your link and just thought to myself - must be some rotten "intellectuals". intellectuals ki kami nahin ghalib, ek dhoondo hazaar milte hain. i didn't respond because i was merely in agreement with you lashing out at some loonies. i never saw that link to Yasin Akhtar-related news clips. generally speaking, i tune out of urdu or Arabic texts (were those news items in urdu?) unless i'm actively looking for something, and in any case, i rarely look at the side ads. i know you don't think i deliberately did it. i'm just re-assuring you that that was indeed the case.


    in the case of the western "scholars" (or eastern scholars drooling over the west like jifry) - their openly and unabashedly dancing to the tunes of the bush-blair nexus, the pope-their holy father, and fox news - leaves only very few "probabilities" to be considered. you CAN'T call them hypotheses or assumptions on my part. if you toss a coin, you can only get two outcomes - head or tail. these people's routine gaffes have left very little to the imagination or very little probabilities to consider.

    in the case of the Bareilly-Mubarakpur story, i personally believe there are great Sunni scholars on both sides, but they're caught up in internal pir politics. it may not be a good thing, but it certainly isn't as bad as dancing to the tunes of western governments, or hindutva agents, or popes, and fox news - UNLESS you or someone else wants to allege that any one side is a puppet of the rss or baba ramdev or something. if one side accuses the other side of something, then they should be held accountable to their own standards.

    as for credibility and fatwa on UBK, for better or worse, Ashrafiya has issued a documented fatwa on UBK (in favor). it is NOT the best thing they did for their credibility, but at least they have publicized a stance. now if the other side doesn't do the same but rather just mentions it in bayans, it is certainly not healthy for them nor for the awam who follow them. they will hurt their credibility themselves. they can either issue a documented rebuttal of Ashrafiya fatwa or a specific fatwa on UBK by name. anyone can easily tell any of their mureeds "what is the basis for your lashing out at UBK when your own shaykh has refrained from issuing a fatwa on him?". this is only my opinion as a non-entity posting on the forum.

    i never said that any shaykh is responsible for the actions of mureeds or khulafaa, much less when he isn't even aware of it. of course, anyone is responsible for whatever happens under his watch while he is aware of it.

    in the case of Bareilly-Mubarakpur, they are two GROUPS not individuals

    for me at least, the very fact that the conflict exists is an externally verifiable reason to doubt the objectivity of both sides, when it comes to their own internal scuffles or their rulings on each other's affiliated personalities.

    i can gladly accept their rulings when it's against outsiders like zakir nayak or shias or something.


    i will post on UBK on the concerned threads soon in sha Allah.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    My last comment on the thread.

    I just had a discussion with someone who knows Mawlana Yasin Akhtar Sahib personally and he has assured me that he is not sulH kulli and that the IMM book was a bad idea because, he said, it can be used by sulH Kullis to justify their actions. He also informed me that the story about his arrest and release is not completely known and that the police and mawlana have given different accounts of the event. He did not comment on the mushawarat's claim of meeting him at his residence. He said that the asharfiya fatwa is wrong and it cannot be condoned in any way and that the respectable scholars have only opened themselves up to criticism and suspicion for no reason. Ubaidullah is not worth making lame excuses for. He said that the chasm has broadened considerably over the years but also expressed hopes that we might see reconciliation soon. He has asked all sunnis to pray for sunni unity and that our ulema resolve their differences amicably through mutual dialogue.

    So the actions I have highlighted in this thread seem, for now, to have been errors and wrong decisions which could have been avoided and whose cumulative effect gives an impression of deliberate commissions and omissions but need not necessarily be so.

    Hence my conclusions and assumptions appear to be hasty in hindsight and I take them back unequivocally for the present and hope that future events will not give me cause to re-assert them or add newer ones to the list.


    But the central point I have made still stands unharmed - that if one side is to be held responsible for everything done by those who claim membership in it and have it's credibility questioned then the other side is even more liable and it's credibility even more questionable than the former.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.

  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I have re-checked all the links beginning from the first post in this thread all of them are working fine.

    I was referring to the mushawarat article I had posted on 23/01/2015 here.

    On that date the mushawarat website had a list of 'related articles' in which the one about ZKI and Qasmi visiting mawlana yasin was right at the top. That's how I came to know about the meeting and thought that at least a few others visiting the website would have noticed. Again, I am not saying that you ignored it deliberately.

    i am not defending any of them but calling them 'paid agents' is just an assumption - highly probable - we don't have a video or pay-check to prove it. Infact their being a paid or not is hardly the issue here, their actions are just as abominable even if committed gratis.

    My point is that you didn't shy away from venturing into hypotheses and assumptions in those cases. So here i am making an ASSUMPTION that the events are not unrelated.

    The title of the thread is apt. I am asking this question: Which way is the wind blowing in regards to ashrafiya and it's scholars?

    Why is it that the credibility of barelvi scholars is perennially on the line? Why should it be that if they don't do this or that they risk losing their credibility? Why should azhari miyaN be held responsible for everything that a rizvi or for that matter his khulafa do? Can it be proven that he was asked regarding each and every one of them and he remained silent or encouraged them? Why then does their credibility come into the question at the drop of a hat?

    Compare this to ashrafiya scholars - UKA, TUQ, ZIK - they have been asked, have been present, know - and either choose to remain silent or exonerate.

    agreed that you have not guessed their intentions there. But you have said that the barelvi ulema are not looking at obaidullah issue 'objectively' - how did you know? a-sahqaqta-qulubuhum?

    You've said the same about the ashrafiya side but for them there are externally verifiable reasons.

    And you have said we are jumping up and down with glee at ashrafiyans' errors. I had to assure you that we are not.


    lastly these are MY fears. I do not ask you to subscribe to them. That would be stupid.

    I am pointing out that these are the people whose credibility is actually at stake.


    I wish this were a nightmare and someone would pinch me and wake me up. This is not good. I am not glad or happy.

    Misbahis are spread across the length and breadth of the country. If they take up the wrong path then sunnism will be in an unimaginably thick soup.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    it was not made in sarcasm but in exasperation that you are refusing to connect the dots in the case of desis by saying we must go by the apparent though in case of non-desis you don't mind reading between the lines and seeing through the verbiage.

    I think i have agreed that you are not taking sides but I do feel that you are in denial about some of your biases, even if unintentionally.
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Here's the list of things which I see connected:

    1. Khustar Noorani's magazine is not refuted where he writes things that border on sulHa kulliayt - at least in a'amaal.

    2. Khushtar's interview with tahir was not decried.

    3. Dilly-Dallying on tahir jhangvi and releasing a strange article 'signed' by three muftis - even though it does not appear to be a fatwa by any stretch - and where it's written that he is a very learned person who lost his way due to arrogance. No specific hukm at all. They should have clarified that he is an impostor with no qualifications.

    4. This event about mawlana yasin meeting and accepting condolences from nadwis/dobbies.

    5. Ubaidullah fiasco - three abominable speeches, calling for dobby-sunni unity, naib-e-rasul for khomaini and all we have is fatwa felicitating him as the champion of Islam.

    6. Mawlana Yasin askhtar has studied at Nadwa. He wasn't a child then. He knew alahazrat's fatwa on nadwis. My friend was told that it's haram to even sit silently in a wahhabi ustadh's lecture even if out of compulsion - he was told that if can't avoid it he should pack his bags and leave the madrasah. So what about studying at Nadwa itself?!

    7. A book which though correct in the essentials (as per the members here who have read it), can be misused to promote 'silence on gumrahs and gumrahis' in the garb of 'there are other things to talk about' and 'shouting the same thing all the time makes no sense'. I finally see where the phrase 'sulH kulliyat ka darwaza' might be coming from. At this stage it is only a guess but the rate at which these events are unfolding I think it won't take long for it to be justified in the eyes of 'outsiders' too. I'll wait.

    Last point, in the speech in which Allamah Zia-ul-Mustafa took a dig at mawlana yasin, he spoke of mawlana yasin inviting a deobandi-murtad to some event. No one came forward to give us the details though sunnistudent claims to know the 'real' story behind a lot of things. After this news it seems quite probable.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    unbeknown, i really don't have time to hold or respond to personal grudges and do forensic analysis on them. i dunno if it's due to the emotions and groupie loyalties flying high lately or just the nature of written text sans emotions that you make that sarcastic post #10. i assure you i sit on no side of the Bareilly-Mubarakpur fiasco and in fact very soon i am going to be posting something that might re-assuringly shock even you.

    show me where i have guessed on intentions (of Tajush Shari3ah or shaykh abubakr) in that post. i stated what is open for all to see. if some intentions are manifest in the actions/texts i can't help it.

    that paid agent rant suits well to those who brown-nose western churches and politicians. there's nothing hidden. it's open for all to see, their actions, speeches, etc. yes, there was an allusion to gibril's intention in that other text you pasted, and that's because no person as well-read and educated as gibril can be so incredibly sloppy or callous to let go of the serious ae3teqadi nonsensical errors of nazim! shoot me for it. you scored a somewhat valid point against me there. you win. ok?
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ok. just so you know, i don't read thru all threads, specially some of the longer ones.

    can you link up the alluded article again and your posts where you were awaiting my response as a non-entity.

    for Sunniport posts, please just link the full thread and mention the exact post # i need to see. the permalinks to specific post #'s take to bizarre places and we both have discussed this software bug/feature before.
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    that's coming from the person who started this thread.

    and who wrote these things:

    and that's from the person who wrote this about connecting the dots.

    And who can read between the lines of hanson's nuance-filled articles and see through g.f haddad's clever sophistry.

    and the tens of other posts where you have accused so many to be 'paid-agents' and a post where people were theorizing about why yaqubi sahib is finally turning his attention to north america after europe and many other such hypotheses.
  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, when I linked to the hebdo article this news of the arrest and ZIK's visit to mawlana yasin's residence was the first one in the list of 'related articles'. I was expecting that you would bring it up and question this action of mawlana agreeing to entertain the duo.

    this in your position as a non-entity. Most of us here are 'non-entities' discussing 'entities' and their less than sound actions.

    since the book IMM had been discussed on a high tempo and you had been asking 'why' throughout it so it was my expectation that such a news should have interested you as it definitely sheds some light on mawlana yasin.

    i did not bring it up cause i felt that it would lead to another 'clash of the key-boarders'.

    It is for such issues that I have twice requested the mods for a separate private forum where members can discuss intra-sunni ikhtilafat without giving the outsiders a chance to rejoice at our expense.

    that you wrote three posts about what you perceived to be something concerning the failings of the people who are ridawis and the bariely shuyukh's percieved silence about it.

    I wished to point out that by the same logic the people from ashrafiya too should have released some clarification by now otherwise their credibility would also be licking the bottom.

    All the more so cause he is a senior scholar and, apparently, has issued multiple joint fatwas with misbahis and his name does count with them.


    I did not know of the DI-bareily dispute until you brought it up on the forum.
    I did not know of the SDI-bareily dispute until you brought it up on the forum.
    I did not know of the Yasin Akhtar-bareily dispute until you brought it up on the forum.

    so you see I expected you bring this event up too.

    To be clear, I am not holding it against you since it seems you did not know about it although I was waiting for quite a few days after that and even thought of sending the link to you in pm. To know your opinion *as a non-entity*.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    most probably true.

    but we as Muslims can only talk based on what DOES meet our eyes and ears - the apparent.

    second guessing on intentions is not our job unless we work in the mainstream media/politics nexus!

    i still ask, what is wrong with the book from a Sunni point of view and i'm still waiting for some evidence on it (inquisitive's mesmerizing response on another thread was "those who know, know" or something along those lines). sorry, but i like to think that we Muslims are not like medieval christians who swallowed anything the pope said completely shutting down their brains.

    personally, i think linking obaidullah to any and every right or wrong action/saying on one or both sides is nonsensical unless and until you can establish a link between obadullah and that right/wrong action/saying (on whichever side) with evidence. we have no choice but to see every event/incident as a discrete event/incident on its own merit.

    otherwise, this whole thing is not even an ilmi ikhtilaf, it's simply no better than the petty party politics of india and the biggest loser in all of this is the poor unfortunate Sunni aam aadmi!


    i still don't understand what you're alluding to me in the OP.
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    bring what up and my take on what? and why would my take matter anyway? i'm just a non-entity on a forum.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    What a true ridawi did:

    Mufti Mehboob Raza of Bhiwandi won a debate against a najdi, see this thread. Mufti sahib is a Misbahi and an erstwhile student of Allamah Zia-ul-Mustafa Sahib.

    After the victory was proclaimed in a series of ijtemas across the Mumbai region a senior deobandi cleric sent Mufti sahib a congratulatory message saying that he was happy to hear of the najdi's defeat at the hands of mufti sahib.

    Mufti sahib said, "thank you very much. I am grateful for your appreciation. We are together in this fight against the najdis. Salaam."

    NO. NOT AT ALL!!

    He actually replied, "AB TERI BAARI HAI". "It's your turn now".

    We call a spade a spade and make no exceptions. This is the maslak-of-alahazrat. Not a watered down hush-not-so-loud-we-dont-want-to-offend-them apologia.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    so WHY did mawlana yasin akhtar entertain this person and the qasmi fellow at his residence? And was this a one off or there's more? Note that both zafar-ul-islam and mawlana yasin stay at jamia-nagar, delhi.

    Which brings us to the crucial question:

    Is mawlana yasin akhtar refuting the deobandis and nadwis enough in his lectures and to students in his madrasah? Why are these nadwis/dobbies so cosy with him?


    And then the million dollar question:

    What was the REAL motivation behind that passage in the book Irfan-e-Mazhab-o-Maslak?

    Who exactly was it aimed at, the lines about jahil/less-learned/fiery maulvis?


    After this meeting and the obaidullah fatwa I am beginning to see Allamah Zia -ul-Mustafa's allegations against Mawlana Yasin Akhtar in an altogether new light. As I had written, back in that thread, there's more to this fiasco than meets the eye and ear.
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Who IS zafr-ul-Islam:

    Khan was born in Azamgarh, India, in March 1948. He is the son of Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, a Muslim thinker who runs the Al Risala/Islamic Center in New Delhi. His primary education was at Madrasa-tul-Islah, a madrasah in Azamgarh, and Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama, Lucknow. Later he studied at Al-Azhar and Cairo University during 1966-73. He obtained his PhD in Islamic Studies from the University of Manchester in 1987.[2]

    Dr Khan has organised as well as attended dozens of conferences and seminars in India and abroad. He organized the International Dialogue between Islam and Oriental Religions at Delhi during 20-21 February 2010. He is a trustee of the Beirut-based Al-Quds Foundation, Qatar-based Eetelaf Al-Khair and International Association of Muslim Scholars (Qatar). He is also a member of two Mecca-based Muslim World League's organizations, Higher Committee for Coordination Among Muslim Organisations and Conference of Islamic Scholars. He is the chairman of the Charity Alliancewhich is doing charitable work among some of the most disadvantaged Muslims in India, especially in Murshidabad (West Bengal). He frequently appears as a commentator on Islamic and South Asian issues on radio and TV channels including Aljazeera and BBC Arabic Radio & TV channels and occasionally writes for some Arabic newspapers and magazines.


    Indian know wahiduddeen khan and his gumrahis - for those who don't - he is the same person who mufti nizamuddeen slammed in his article posted here.
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Highlights of the Dastoor of the AIMMM
    Objective and Purposes of the MMM

    According to the Dastoor, the object and purpose of the Mushawarat is to secure unity, cooperation and coordination among Muslim Jamaats as well as personalities of eminence, to establish a consensus on issues of concern to the community, to promote communal harmony, to provide relief as well as legal aid to the victims of communal violence, to monitor the situation of the Muslim community and to take up their legitimate grievances arising from non-implementation of the constitutional guarantees, national policies and political assurances with the authorities concerned, to encourage Muslim participation in national affairs and to create conditions for the protection of their religious and social identity and for the promotion of their educational and economic development.
  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    What is this AIMMM?

    The All India Muslim Majlis-eMushawarat (AIMMM), as the apex forum of Muslim organizations and institutions of national eminence alongwith some well-known personalities, was established at a representative meeting of the community leaders held on 8-9 August, 1964 at Nadwatul-Ulema, Lucknow, inaugurated by Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadvi and chaired by Dr. Syed Mahmood. Apart from them, Mufti Atiqur Rahman, Maulana Abul Lais Islahi, Qari Mohd. Tayyab, Maulana Kalb-e-Abid, Maulana Minatullah Rahmani, Janab Mohammad Muslim, Maulana Jan Mohammad and Janab Ebrahim Sulaiman Sait played the key role.

    Dr. Syed Mahmood was elected as its first President. Mr. M.N. Anwar, MP became its first General Secretary.


    The MMM of the AIMMM cordially felicitates, its former President Dr Z I Khan, Editor, the Milli Gazete for successfully organizing the International Dialogue between Islam and Oriental Religions in Delhi on 20-21 February 2010 with the cooperation of the international Union of Islamic Scholars, Doha.
    The MMM is convinced that the Dialogue shall lead to greater understanding and more cooperation & reduce mutual bias in a multi-religious country like ours.


    At one stage in Majles-e-Amla I had suggested that the Madarsas of national eminence that the Darul-Uloom and the Nadwatul-Ulema should consider setting up a suitable machinery to regulating the issue of Fatwas on matters of family life and even on issues which have the potential for our adversaries to malign us. I was silenced by the observation that all Muftis have the right to issue a Fatwa.


    The All India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat (AIMMM) deplores the unnecessary and avoidable controversy over the requirement of facial photographs to establish the identity of a Muslim female elector.

    The AIMMM notes, on one hand, that a facial photograph is a universal requirement of all identity documents including the Special Haj Passport.

    According to religious authorities the Islamic purdah does not mandate the face to be covered by veil or burqa. Indeed, the customary burga is specific to the subcontinent and is not universal because in many places Muslim women do not wear it, particularly those who work. In many Muslim countries women do not cover their face even in public places.


    Here he started fine but then dove-tailed:

    Two article in latest issue of Afkare Milli once again deal with the question of Hindu Holy book being divine revalism and be Avatar prophet. There are two defect in the presentation whenever the Vedas or Uprash, Pavan are quoted no body detail of edition name of publisher, the name of the translator, the name of the place of publication etc are not mention so that there can be no check on whether the refrence is correct. I have since the holy quran silient about the name of prophet outside the Arab Panisulla at best one can presume that there must have been prophet & revalism for the guidance of the people living in such historaical areas like India or China which are sheets of ancient civilization.

    I do not understand why you are anxious to recognize the Ram, Krishna are prophet why you are equally anxious to prove that Hindu holy books mean the holy prophet when mention Kalinki Avatar.

    To my mind it appears that it is path of universal tribe to obliterate the dividing line between Islam & Pre-Islamic religious. This does not need that we do not respect those who people of other religion respect.


    On Use of Word Allah by Christians
    Letter to High Commissioner for Malaysia,12 Jan., 2010
    We are surprised by the violent reaction in Malaysia to the use of name of Allah by Christians in their scripture translated in Malay and in their places of worship, and that some sections of the Muslim Community have reacted angrily and violently.

    As Muslims we all believe that that Allah is the creator & preserver of all humanity. Allah has the same meaning as God in English & Ishwar in Sanskrit, It is not related exclusively to any particular faith. We would like to add that this situation in Malaysia is not only besmearing the liberal image of Malaysia but also confirming the fanatical view of Islam among the islamophobes of the west.

    I request you to convey our feelings to your Government with the hope that if may strengthen their fight apart extremism.


    On Alleged Persecution of Bahais in Iran
    Letter to Ambassador of Iran to India,14 January 2010

    As the biggest religious minority in India we have our grievances but we feel that Muslim States must treat their minorities well to set an example. That would benefit us and help us in fighting against disabilities and difficulties that we face. We hope that Baha’is & other minorities in Iran will not suffer any systematic harassment and those under trial shall receive a transparent and fair public trial.


    On Management of Bodh Gaya Temple
    Letter to the Home Minister, 7 January, 2010
    I find that the National Commission for Minorities has requested you to take note of Bodh Gaya Management Act 1949, which places the Temple under the joint control of Hindus and Buddhists, thorough it is a Buddhist shrine. I was a member of the Management Committee as a representative of the Ministry of External Affairs in the late 70’s I had pointed out to the Government of Bihar even then that the existing arrangement was not fair and in effect turned the Temple into a joint shrine. The Buddhists are particularly unhappy about the installation of a Shiv Lingam in the sanctum sanctoram. They are also unhappy about the idols of five Pandavas in a neighboring structure a few yards away. For long the property belonging to the Temple or whatever remains of it is managed by a Hindu Mahant. But what is important is that the Management Committee has a clear Hindus majority.

    All religious communities want excusive control of their shrines. I, therefore, urge you to advise the Government of Bihar to amend the Act of 1949 so that the management is in the hands of the Buddhist community, through their representative organizations and institutions. The Committee may also have representation of the Government of Bihar, the Department of Archeology and Ministry of External Affairs.


    and the cherry on top - Mushawarat condemns the attack on Paris magazine office
  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    I have started this thread as a sequel to these posts AQ1, AQ2, AQ3.

    I had seen this news item when I posted a link to the AIMMM website. I did not bring this up because I did not wish to create more bickering and hard feelings amongst forum members. But I had half-expected AQ to bring it up and let us know his take on it. When he did not I assumed that he had missed it. Maybe.

    But after the above posts I feel that it's time that people took notice of this development too.

    I quote:
    Dr. Zafarul-Islam Khan, President of AIMMM and Maulana Ataur Rahman Qasmi, General Secretary of AIMMM, visited Maulana Misbahi this morning at his residence and conveyed to him the whole community's support to him and its displeasure at the maltreatment meted out to him at the hands of the Special Cell the previous day.

Share This Page