mard-e-momin

[Wadood]

i refuse to accept that Ala Hazrat could have been so criminally sloppy to suggest the jinnah-esque style "everyone pack your bags, leave your homes, ancestral lands, and livelihoods and move out" solution.



secular democracy is evil. Shari3at is good. jinnah should be defined by what he wanted for his new state.



straw man. no one who stayed back is a stateless person either.

Jinnah was against Muslim migration from india. Jinnah wanted the Muslims in the five provinces and in Bengal to live separately. That is the reason why Jinnah did not ask for the inclusion of Muslim majority Bihari districts adjoining Bengal to the former East Pakistan.

Jinnah tried his best to keep the hindu and Sikh minorities from migrating to india. But the chaos of partition in Punjab was out of control.

 

[naqshbandijamaati]

hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqiqat lekin
dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib yeh khyaal accha hai.

--

 

[Wadood]

Wadood.
Pakistan is still a very young Nation and we are still not sure as a nation what we stand for.
too many of us like to act more catholic than the pope and that's due to the fact that the country was born due to religion whether rightly or wrongly.

too many of us still try to deny the indian part of our history. why aren't we proud of the 6000 year old indus valley civilisation or that indian civilisation prior to 1947 is as much our cultural heritage as it is of India? It is stupid that textbooks in pakistan act as if history began with the invasion of muhammad ibn qasim! too many of us act like wannabe Arabs and idealise invaders who killed and raped and looted the locals just because they were Muslims. in short pakistanis are still very confused as a nation and the mullah brigade doesn't help.

you are right that we are slowly developing our own separate culture to india but it is also true that a large part will always be common from the food and dress to urdu language. luckily most pakistanis still are very open minded people and like to enjoy life. secondly sufism has a strong hold over much of punjab and sindh and balochistan and the sufis respected their are largely the inclusive sufis such as baba bulleh shah and sayyid waris shah who preached an inclusive form of islam full of love and criticised the dry-as-dust mullahs.

Brother Asif, you are right, but let me clarify some of your points. I have asked Pakistani academics and people. They deny the word "indian". But they do not deny the Indus Valley Civilization and ancient history and continuity to this day. They claim to be "natives" of the land ( and so do not want to be arabs ). However, the trend of claiming foreign roots is very fashionable in Pakistan. But to me it appears as a legitimate claim of continuity with the Muslims to the west ( Central Asia / Afghanistan / Iran ) as these peoples of the indus valley were far more contiguous to those cultures than to UP people or Bihari people, or Dakkani people.

However, underlying these claims of foreign ancestry, for example Awans claiming Qutub Shahi descent, and Arains claiming Arab descent from Sindh, is the commonly accepted fact among Pakistanis that they are descended from native peoples and they respect their 6000 year old history. I have found these ideas as common as being an arab wannabee in the country.

Punjabi / Sindhis / Baloch / Pashtuns / Kashmiris are all deeply linked people forming a continuous string of common thought. For example, the migrant Baloch people. They are spread out across the four provinces giving the country a unique feel ( in the midde areas ) that is different and unique to the entire sub continent. The paracha people are another example for KPK and Punjab.

Pakistan to india is like Korea to China. Afghanistan to India is like Japan to China, though the Japanese use a script borrowed from the Chinese. Not sure about the Koreans.

 

[abu Hasan]

this short fatwa explains the ground rules for hijrat: fatawa ridawiyyah, vol.14 / pages 131-132.

 

[Wadood]

There are a lot of Muslims in Punjab who are migrants from regions that do share a lot in common with Muslims of UP. These are Muslims of eastern half of Haryana and eastern Rajasthan, for example people from Mewat, Rohtak, Jaipur, Alwar, and other Rajasthani regions. However, in Pakistani Punjab, due to inter-marriage and culture, a lot of them have assimilated into the native population. Though frictions still exist for example in cities like Jhang

 

[AbdalQadir]

These five groups have little in common ( in terms of culture ) with the rest of the Muslims of india across the Jamuna River, beginning at Doab, Kathiawar, and Jodhpur / Nagaur in Rajasthan. They do not consider themselves part of indian muslims .

the present day indian Muslims aren't a homogeneous entity either!

the hyderabadi Muslims are different from the rest of the telugu-speaking AP Muslims, much less the ones from karnataka

the tamil Muslims are different from the keralite ones, notwithstanding the internal differences in cultures between the Urdu-speaking and Tamil-speaking Muslims of TN

the konkan coast Muslims are different from gujrati Muslims

Muslim biharis are different from UP Muslims

kashmiri Muslims are different from bengali Muslims

the list goes on.

the above mentioned groups are completely at odds with each other in terms of food, clothing, cultural practices & language - just like the pakistani punjabis, pashtoons, balochis, sindhis, etc.

i don't see the point you're making

my point was that thanks to jinnah's lust for personal power, the overall subcontinental Muslim solidarity, unity, political hold, and (achievable) power (as an ummah) was crumbled

 

[abu Hasan]

there is another specific fatwa that was written in 1339 AH, the year before alahazrat passed away:

 

[Wadood]

my point was that thanks to jinnah's lust for personal power, the overall subcontinental Muslim solidarity, unity, political hold, and (achievable) power (as an ummah) was crumbled

whether Jinnah had a lust for personal power is debatable, because Liaqat Ali Khan of Haryana was another powerful person in the Muslim league, and the most powerful person in Pakistan after its creation

 

[abu Hasan]

I honestly don't get why the more conservative elements are so opposed to it.

it is a strawman and a favourite fantasy of liberals. nobody is opposed to ijtihad - ijtihad on new issues is obligatory.

what is amusing is that none of these die-hard liberals and modernists (including iqbal) seem to have even browsed the corpus of usul al-fiqh; yet they diss it, call it old fashioned, throw it in the bin, call for renewal anything.

I also think this terror of going against the interpretation of past scholars is what is holding us back.

that is because of your narrow mindedness and clinging to the myth. ulama have said long ago that interpretations will change if there is observable proof to the contrary. many books of tafsir are filled with such examples where later imams disagree with elder ones citing observed proof.

but certainly, don't expect a revision every few years as cultural mores change and the vast public opinion alters. there are only inductive answers to one of the objections alahazrat raised about the earth being stationary. that is, if you throw a stone in the air, it should not come back on the same place, but follow a parabola; secondly, if you were to hover in a balloon in london in the morning, by afternoon you should be in russia because the earth is rotating and you are hovering above. the explanation given is that the atmosphere also rotates around so you stay where you are. khayr, i am not interested in arguing about it again.

 

[Ghulam]

'I came to believe that this was the poet in whose poetry one would find the pleasant odor of his burning heart. I came to believe that this was the poet whose poetry deserved to be celebrated and venerated since his poetry was a message (risālah), his love was faith (imān), and his feelings were a spiritual awakening (intifādah rūhiyyah)—these three traits making him out to be the renewer (mujaddid) of the world in which he lived'

Sayyid abul Hasan Nadwi sold Iqbal well to the Syrians

http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/iqbalquarterly/Spring 2003.htm

 

[Wadood]

DELETED TEXT aH: i don't worry about what a zindiq thinks about me. i have deleted his pathetic protests.

AH and AQ are just straightforward people who call a spade as a spade. They also have fear of Allah. They are genuine people bro.

 

[kattarsunni]

Wadood have you inadvertently pressed like on naqsh's post?

@naqshbadijamaati: before you say homosexuality is inherent in human beings, genetically speaking, you must prove that.

What constitutes evidence for you to prove a 'fact'? For instance how do you prove to me empirically that evolution is a fact?

What is ijtihad and when is it applicable? And where do you get your definition of ijtihad from?

 

[kattarsunni]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions is a book that might help you answer my questions. It's worth the read.

http://projektintegracija.pravo.hr/_download/repository/Kuhn_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions.pdf

 

[Unbeknown]

someone informed me:

There was ikhtilaaf among the khulafa of Alahadhrat(radhiAllahuanhu) on the issue of division of India. Some, like Mawlana Hashmat Ali Khan('alayhirrahmah), maintained that the muslims have been living in India for centuries and a sizeable majority of them are indigenous to the land, we have a right to settle across the length and breadth of the subcontinet so why be satisfied with just a piece of it?

Shaareh Bukhari, Mufti Shariful Haqq Amjadi sahib ('alayhirrahmah) has written a book about this issue, highlighting the disadvantages of dividion of the country, most of which have been found to be true.


Ibn Hajar Makki ('alayhirrahmah) was questioned regarding a land which is ruled by non-muslims but the muslims have complete freedom to practise their faith unhindered. Is it wajib to migrate from it? He answered that it is not wajib to migrate, rather it is wajib to stay so that the non-muslims may know about Islam and its message may not be obscured from them.

Wassalaam

 

[Wadood]

Wadood have you inadvertently pressed like on naqsh's post?

i pressed like on his post without reading it. forgive me please, it was a mistake.

 

[AbdalQadir]

i'm still curious.

just who conferred the title of "allama" upon Iqbal?

is it used as "allama" in the Islamic context? or in the secular education context due to his doctorate?

to me, the origins of this "allama" title are as mysterious as tahir's "shaykh-ul-Islam" title.

if the jahil awam implies it in a religious context, why do the ulema join them and parrot the same "allama" when mentioning him?

 

[Wadood]

i'm still curious.

just who conferred the title of "allama" upon Iqbal?

is it used as "allama" in the Islamic context? or in the secular education context due to his doctorate?

to me, the origins of this "allama" title are as mysterious as tahir's "shaykh-ul-Islam" title.

if the jahil awam implies it in a religious context, why do the ulema join them and parrot the same "allama" when mentioning him?

In Pakistan its different. The awaam conferred it especially Punjabis. Its primarily nationalism and due to perpetual war with hindu india. Neither Islamic scholar nor a secular education context, especially not the latter as it is hated by 99%. He is Pakistan's most revered national Muslim hero for their short history. He is so revered, they think of him as a savior, especially Punjab. Village after village he is revered by the young and old; almost 200 million people of all races. By the word they mean teacher, philosopher, Hakeem, leader, saint etc. Almost all Sunni scholars in Pakistan call him allama

 

[AbdalQadir]

just got this. Allahu a3lam about authenticity but it's encouraging.

 

[AbdalQadir]

iqbal on ram, i wanted to see the poem obaidullah was refering to

http://pureiqbal.blogspot.com.tr/2013/12/blog-post_2428.html

رام

لبریز ہے شراب حقیقت سے جام ہند
سب فلسفی ہیں خطۂ مغرب کے رام ہند
یہ ہندیوں کے فکر فلک رس کا ہے اثر
رفعت میں آسماں سے بھی اونچا ہے بام ہند
اس دیس میں ہوئے ہیں ہزاروں ملک سرشت
مشہور جن کے دم سے ہے دنیا میں نام ہند
ہے رام کے وجود پہ ہندوستاں کو ناز
اہل نظر سمجھتے ہیں اس کو امام ہند
اعجاز اس چراغ ہدایت کا ہے یہی
روشن تر از سحر ہے زمانے میں شام ہند
تلوار کا دھنی تھا ، شجاعت میں فرد تھا
پاکیزگی میں ، جوش محبت میں فرد تھا

 

[Unbeknown]

naqvi makes some very interesting remarks.

most of the top political dogs, across party and ideological lines, were complicit in the atrocities wreaked on the muslims in the aftermath of the partition. Some actively aided them and some just looked the other way and refused to intervene (which was their moral and legal responsibility, given the offices they held) and in-fact, tried to cover up for the murderers.