It'd be better if there was someone bilingual close to mawlana saeed asad who can read abu Hasan's posts, translate the gist to Mawlana and then Mawlana can respond in urdu.
When was RasulAllah ﷺ granted nubuwwah?
- Thread starter Aqdas
- Start date
IslamIsTheTruth
Well-Known Member
Excuse my ignorance ya sheikh, but what is the issue
with Saeed Assad Saab stating that the duties that come with being a Nabi were given in Ghar e Hira after wahi?
(He mentions three conditions of being a Nabi extracted from Bahar e Shariat @ 10mins in the video.)
Even though the promise and announcement of being a Nabi were given in Aalam e Arwa.
Isaac Amini
Active Member
There are people who read English. however, I doubt their command of the language would be good enough to fully comprehend what Shaykh Abu Hasan has written.
Isaac Amini
Active Member
Just fyi. I am passing on all translations as soon as they appear.
Jzk for the effort brother Noori
Jzk for the effort brother Noori
please wait because i'm correcting errors in my posts.
will try to finish other posts tonight inshaAllah. Isaac, you should wait until i finish post # 19 by sidi Abu Hasan, no rush please because i might make some mistakes and correct them later. it will also be good if you forward all the posts consolidated so that molana sahab can ignore duplicates etc.
abu Hasan
Administrator
there are some more things that i plan to write, in sha'Allah; but let us get a few quick Qs out of the way:
this may not make sense to those who don't understand urdu, and they may wonder what the brouhaha is all about.
anyway, in urdu, '40 saal ke baad nubuwwat mili' is an expression we say should be avoided. nubuwwat to pahle se mili thi; lekin jab umr sharif 40 baras ki huwi tab biysat huwi aur iylan e nubuwwat kiya.
----
if this is not contested and put to rest, this will open a door of fitnah among ahl al-sunnah which will only become worse and worser. if you do not believe me, look at the wahabis and devbandis - every successive generation lowers the bar further. nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
besides, this erroneous position is very shaky - i do not understand why mawlana saeed sahib and some others favour a losing position.
wa billahi't tawfiq.
see biythah بعثة is the word used to describe it. but i don't think this is the main issue. it has been simmering for some time now; the contention is that some people say that he was MADE a prophet after 40; we say, he was ordained a prophet before the creation of hazrat Aadam alayhi's salam, but he was sent forth to announce his prophethood at the age of 40.
this may not make sense to those who don't understand urdu, and they may wonder what the brouhaha is all about.
anyway, in urdu, '40 saal ke baad nubuwwat mili' is an expression we say should be avoided. nubuwwat to pahle se mili thi; lekin jab umr sharif 40 baras ki huwi tab biysat huwi aur iylan e nubuwwat kiya.
----
i will comment on this in a separate post; i have a few objections on allamah sahib's claims in this portion.
it was not a 'promise'. it was GRANTED in aalam e arwah or even before it. wAllahu a'alam.
to the best of my knowledge, this is a matter of fadayil and interpretation of hadith. but neither is wiping on mests or mawlid or tawassul or qaSidah burdah.
if this is not contested and put to rest, this will open a door of fitnah among ahl al-sunnah which will only become worse and worser. if you do not believe me, look at the wahabis and devbandis - every successive generation lowers the bar further. nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
besides, this erroneous position is very shaky - i do not understand why mawlana saeed sahib and some others favour a losing position.
well. this was an issue of academic interest and discussed/debated among ulama. now that it is in the mainstream, we ought to take a stand and clarify it.
wa billahi't tawfiq.
Isaac Amini
Active Member
Shaykh Abu Hasan, when you say 'we say' it should be avoided when referring to the urdu does we mean Ala Hazrat, or have scholars debated it recently.
abu Hasan
Administrator
mawlana saeed sahib says:
nabi kahte kise haiN
nabi ke liye 3 sharToN ka hona zaruri hai, teen shartoN ka.
pahle number par, ke woh bashar ho. koyi ghayr e bashar nabi nahiN ho sakta. rasul ho saktey haiN. lekin nabiy ke liye zaruri kya hai, ke woh kya ho, bashar ho. bahar e shariat safah 10 utha ke dekh leN.
doosra. waHy ke baghayr nubuwwat nahiN milti. nabiy kis se banta hai. waHy se. jab tak waHy nahiN aati nabi nahiN ban'ta. do sharteN.
aur teesri shart kya hai. ke uske aage ummat bhi ho. Allah ka paygham us par aaye - aur woh aagey kisi ko pahuNchaye.
ye teen sharTeN hoN to shar'an phir usko nabi kaha jata hai.
====
aur ye teenoN sharTeN aalam e arwaaH meiN to nahiN payi gayiN thi na? sarkar us waqt bashari Haalat meiN nahiN the. sarkar par waHy nahiN aayi thi. aur nabiy karim alayhi's salatu wa's salam ke liye Allah ne koyi ummat bhi muqarrar nahiN ki thi ke inko paygham sunaO mera.
nabi ke liye 3 sharToN ka hona zaruri hai, teen shartoN ka.
pahle number par, ke woh bashar ho. koyi ghayr e bashar nabi nahiN ho sakta. rasul ho saktey haiN. lekin nabiy ke liye zaruri kya hai, ke woh kya ho, bashar ho. bahar e shariat safah 10 utha ke dekh leN.
doosra. waHy ke baghayr nubuwwat nahiN milti. nabiy kis se banta hai. waHy se. jab tak waHy nahiN aati nabi nahiN ban'ta. do sharteN.
aur teesri shart kya hai. ke uske aage ummat bhi ho. Allah ka paygham us par aaye - aur woh aagey kisi ko pahuNchaye.
ye teen sharTeN hoN to shar'an phir usko nabi kaha jata hai.
====
aur ye teenoN sharTeN aalam e arwaaH meiN to nahiN payi gayiN thi na? sarkar us waqt bashari Haalat meiN nahiN the. sarkar par waHy nahiN aayi thi. aur nabiy karim alayhi's salatu wa's salam ke liye Allah ne koyi ummat bhi muqarrar nahiN ki thi ke inko paygham sunaO mera.
===================
translation:
who is called a prophet?
there are 3 conditions necessary for a prophet.
1. he should be human. a non-human cannot be a prophet. they can be messengers [rasul], but it is necessary for a prophet to be human. check page no.10 in bahar e shariat.
2. without revelation [waHy] one does not RECEIVE prophethood. what makes one a prophet? revelation [waHy]. UNTIL revelation is received one does not BECOME a prophet. that makes two conditions. [emphasis mine]
3. and what is the third condition? that there should be his followers too. the message of Allah ta'ala comes to him [i.e. prophet] and he [the prophet] will forward the [message] to the followers.
if these three conditions are met, then by Divine Law (shariah) he is called a prophet.
and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH], isn't it? because our Master was not in his human state at that time. our Master had not received any revelation. and for our Noble Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam - Allah ta'ala had not ordained [muqarrar] a group of followers [ummat] and commanded: 'deliver My message to them'.
======================there are 3 conditions necessary for a prophet.
1. he should be human. a non-human cannot be a prophet. they can be messengers [rasul], but it is necessary for a prophet to be human. check page no.10 in bahar e shariat.
2. without revelation [waHy] one does not RECEIVE prophethood. what makes one a prophet? revelation [waHy]. UNTIL revelation is received one does not BECOME a prophet. that makes two conditions. [emphasis mine]
3. and what is the third condition? that there should be his followers too. the message of Allah ta'ala comes to him [i.e. prophet] and he [the prophet] will forward the [message] to the followers.
if these three conditions are met, then by Divine Law (shariah) he is called a prophet.
and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH], isn't it? because our Master was not in his human state at that time. our Master had not received any revelation. and for our Noble Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam - Allah ta'ala had not ordained [muqarrar] a group of followers [ummat] and commanded: 'deliver My message to them'.
there are a few objections on this speech.
the first condition is as stated in bahar e shariat. no objection on that one, and no argument concerning that.
the second condition...um...i do not like the way `allamah sahib phrased it. let us go back to bahar e shariat for this one.
this translates to:
for one to be a prophet, it is necessary that he should receive revelation [waHy] - whether it is [delivered] by an angel or he receives without any intermediary.
blink and you will miss it.
allamah sahib said: "without revelation [waHy] one does not RECEIVE prophethood." this specifically means that UNTIL revelation is received that person is not a prophet. and he emphasises it in the next sentence: "UNTIL revelation is received one does not BECOME a prophet."
of course, he has phrased it in this manner because it suits his position.
---
now, if RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam BECAME a prophet AFTER receiving revelation in hiraa - then what about the first hadith in sahih bukhari titled: "the beginning of revelation" it is a lengthy hadith, and i quote just the portion that is relevant to our discussion;bukhari, hadith #4953 [again this is in bab al-tafsir, and i have selected this version for the commentary that follows]:
now, in this hadith, it is said that the beginning of revelation to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was in the form of true dreams. a few questions:
1. were these dreams prior or after the 40th year?
2. were these dreams prior or after the revelation in cave hira?
3. it is a well-known and accepted position that the dreams of prophets are also waHy; are these dreams waHy?
4. if it were before the 40th year, was he a prophet THEN? or did he BECOME a prophet ONLY after the event in cave hira where he received what is known as the first revelation [first is relative and subjective. it means first from the qur'an. wAllahu a'alam.]? if not, why not?
---
imam ibn Hajar explaining this writes: [fat'H al-bari vol.11/p.105]
even if one says that the dreams were in the 40th year, the claim that he was MADE a prophet in cave hira doesn't stand. because in the above passage ibn Hajar says: "the beginning of the advent of waHy was dreams" and then adds, "however those signs that absolutely proved his being a prophet were long before this; things such as salutation of stone as found in the hadith of muslim etc."
the question is, when those stones/pebbles saluted RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, what did they say?
---
let us have a quick look on what imam ayni has to say in his umdat al-qari v19, p438:
"...otherwise, the proof of prophethood [dalayil al-nubuwwah] had appeared in him long before; such as hearing from baHirah the monk, and hearing near the ka'abah: 'fasten your lower garment [izar] and saluting of the stone."
so when we refer to the hadith of sahih muslim #2277:
RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "verily i recognize the stone in makkah which saluted me BEFORE I WAS SENT FORTH (ub'ath) and verily, i recognise/know it [even] now."
---
the question here is more difficult: why did RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam say: 'before i was sent forth" i.e. 'biythah' and not 'before i was given prophethood?'
and baHirah recognised WHO? prophet or not-prophet?
----
it should be known that in arabic when they use 'before prophethood' they mean, before biythah; not that he was a non-prophet and THEN he was given prophethood and THEN he became a prophet at 40.
[to be continued, in sha'Allah]
wAllahu a'alam wa ilmuhu atam.
Attachments
abu Hasan
Administrator
brother, i am hoping you will be soon included in the 'we' above...and mawlana saeed asad sahib as well. in sha'Allah wa bi tawfiqih.
: )
Isaac Amini
Active Member
I have no issue accepting the truth. I have no issue in accepting Allama Saeed Asad is wrong on this matter if it is proved so. My loyalty lies with the truth. I say this sincerely
Isaac Amini
Active Member
This video I have posted isn't a response to Shaykh Abu Hasan. However it does include a Q&A session.
It may not answer your questions however it may help shape ur future questions
It is a bit long but I think Allama Saeed Asad does provide some more references in this.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=319041451821700&id=100011475433676
It may not answer your questions however it may help shape ur future questions
It is a bit long but I think Allama Saeed Asad does provide some more references in this.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=319041451821700&id=100011475433676
Last edited:
abu Hasan
Administrator
the third condition is incorrect according to jumhur position.
it is not a condition that a nabiy is commanded to do tabligh. and only a rasul is commanded to do tabligh.
some scholars consider nabiy and rasul as synonymous; but according to jumhur there is a difference. and as we have seen mawlana saeed sahib ALSO makes this difference - he does not consider both the same (for he correctly identifies that a rasul CAN be a non-human, such as an angel).
more on this later, in sha'Allah.
---
but we need to close point #2 still.
in surah maryam, verse 30, hazrat yisa alayhi's salam says:
hazrat yisa alayhi's salam was a newborn child - what would be your reply to a christian who says: hazrat yisa alayhi's salam is superior to hazrat muhammad salawatullahi wa salamuhu alayh, because hazrat yisa alayhi's salam was a prophet since birth and hazrat muhammad sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam BECAME a prophet after 40 years.
imam nasafi quotes an opinion that says he was given nubuwwat in his childhood.
===
of course, there are explanations. most mufassirin explain that the revelation is to be given in the future, but as it is a foregone conclusion and a definite occurrence that is destined, it is said here. such as the verse below:
even though judgement day is still far, past tense is used to mean that it is a definite occurrence.
see tafsir kabir for lengthy dissertation and proofs for both positions; one group says that hazrat yisa was a prophet in childhood, and the other says he becomes a prophet in the future at age thirty when he receives waHy. a similar verse is about hazrat yahya alayhi's salam, but it is open to interpretation as it says: "hukm" and those who do not accept will say "hukm" here does not mean prophethood/nubuwwah.
alahazrat translates it:
as qaDi bayDawi has said:
though other mufassiring say it means: 'fiqh fi'd din'
wAllahu a'alam.
----
ali al-qari in daw al-ma'ali, under the verse:
wa farDun lazimun taSdiqu ruslin
wa amlakin kiramin bi'n nawali
says:
===
i do not want to digress too much, but the point mawlana saeed makes that it is a condition that prophets should do tabligh is debatable. hence, it doesn't bolster his position.
wAllahu a'alam.
it is not a condition that a nabiy is commanded to do tabligh. and only a rasul is commanded to do tabligh.
some scholars consider nabiy and rasul as synonymous; but according to jumhur there is a difference. and as we have seen mawlana saeed sahib ALSO makes this difference - he does not consider both the same (for he correctly identifies that a rasul CAN be a non-human, such as an angel).
more on this later, in sha'Allah.
---
but we need to close point #2 still.
in surah maryam, verse 30, hazrat yisa alayhi's salam says:
and he said, verily i am a slave of Allah, and He has given me the Book, and has made me a prophet.
hazrat yisa alayhi's salam was a newborn child - what would be your reply to a christian who says: hazrat yisa alayhi's salam is superior to hazrat muhammad salawatullahi wa salamuhu alayh, because hazrat yisa alayhi's salam was a prophet since birth and hazrat muhammad sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam BECAME a prophet after 40 years.
imam nasafi quotes an opinion that says he was given nubuwwat in his childhood.
===
of course, there are explanations. most mufassirin explain that the revelation is to be given in the future, but as it is a foregone conclusion and a definite occurrence that is destined, it is said here. such as the verse below:
the command of Allah cometh [i.e., judgement day and punishment for disbelievers]
even though judgement day is still far, past tense is used to mean that it is a definite occurrence.
see tafsir kabir for lengthy dissertation and proofs for both positions; one group says that hazrat yisa was a prophet in childhood, and the other says he becomes a prophet in the future at age thirty when he receives waHy. a similar verse is about hazrat yahya alayhi's salam, but it is open to interpretation as it says: "hukm" and those who do not accept will say "hukm" here does not mean prophethood/nubuwwah.
o yahya, take hold of the Book firmly. and we gave him the command [prophethood] in his childhood.
alahazrat translates it:
as qaDi bayDawi has said:
though other mufassiring say it means: 'fiqh fi'd din'
wAllahu a'alam.
----
ali al-qari in daw al-ma'ali, under the verse:
wa farDun lazimun taSdiqu ruslin
wa amlakin kiramin bi'n nawali
says:
it is quite probable that the poet/author prefers the position that nabiy and rasul are synonymous (mean the same); and this is ibn humam's preferred position. however this is against the majority (jumhur) because rasul/messenger is a special nabi/prophet. and [a prophet] is a human to whom revelation is sent, regardless whether he is commanded to do tabligh [deliver the message] or not; however rasul or messenger is [certainly] commanded to deliver the message.
===
i do not want to digress too much, but the point mawlana saeed makes that it is a condition that prophets should do tabligh is debatable. hence, it doesn't bolster his position.
wAllahu a'alam.
Arshad ul Qadri
New Member
Bahar e Shariat author makes it very simple just in one line:
dبلکہ محض عطائے الٰہی ہے، کہ جسے چاہتا ہے اپنے فضل سے دیتا ہے، ہاں! دیتا اُسی کو ہے جسے اس منصبِ عظیم کے قابل بناتا ہے، جو قبلِ حصولِ نبوّت تمام
He mentions Qabl Husul Nubuwwat.
It could also explain why there is so much igtilaf about what is possible and not, before and after Nubuwwah according the ashari.
Without a doubt many other Ahadith show that the last Prophet was already a Prophet before his human form. Sallallaahu Alaihi Wasallam.
dبلکہ محض عطائے الٰہی ہے، کہ جسے چاہتا ہے اپنے فضل سے دیتا ہے، ہاں! دیتا اُسی کو ہے جسے اس منصبِ عظیم کے قابل بناتا ہے، جو قبلِ حصولِ نبوّت تمام
He mentions Qabl Husul Nubuwwat.
It could also explain why there is so much igtilaf about what is possible and not, before and after Nubuwwah according the ashari.
Without a doubt many other Ahadith show that the last Prophet was already a Prophet before his human form. Sallallaahu Alaihi Wasallam.
naqshbandijamaati
Veteran
pedantic note to sidi AH:
it is more idiomatic in English to translate
aur ye teenoN sharTeN aalam e arwaaH meiN to nahiN payi gayiN thi na?
as
and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH], were they ?
(instead of the Indo-Pakistani give-away phrase, "'isn't it?")
--
Also a maulana told me his name was Sa'eed as-Sa'ad not Saeed Asad. Allah knows best. I'm very surprised by his talk as it goes against what is commonly taught in our mosques and madrassahs...
--
it is more idiomatic in English to translate
aur ye teenoN sharTeN aalam e arwaaH meiN to nahiN payi gayiN thi na?
as
and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH], were they ?
(instead of the Indo-Pakistani give-away phrase, "'isn't it?")
--
Also a maulana told me his name was Sa'eed as-Sa'ad not Saeed Asad. Allah knows best. I'm very surprised by his talk as it goes against what is commonly taught in our mosques and madrassahs...
--
Unbeknown
Senior Moderator
so there are three events:
1. true dreams
2. waHiy in the cave of hira
3. actual proclamation of prophethood/commencement of tabligh
between the 2nd and 3rd was there not an interval of time? was it not that until the revelation of "qum", (Arise and warn) the actual command for tabligh had not come? so would that mean that only after this verse he (peace be upon him) became a nabyi?
and the blessed seal on his (peace be upon him) blessed back.
and the words of a monk (I do not know if he was the same person) are also interesting, "none has sat under this tree but a prophet".
abu Hasan
Administrator
i had actually stopped it as a sentence without the question tag:
and after all these three conditions were not met in the realm of souls [aalam e arwaH].
and when i saw the 'na', i just added 'isn't it' as the latter [decried] usage in english comes from the expression in hindi/urdu. here it was used as: "isn't it so?"
---
Isaac Amini
Active Member
I hope brothers didn't miss this link. This is the 2nd part of the first speech, which includes a Q&A
I just listened to the 2nd clip, but unfortunately in this clip molana sahab's arguments are rather very weak that a child in islamic learning like me can see the fallacies in those arguments. and what is disgusting is that he is indirectly rejecting sahih ahadith, and insinuating that the majority of ahlussunah are karamiyyah .
but i'll leave it for sidi abu Hasan to deal with it in academic manner and his own style. I will only translate his posts here.