Barelwi

[Oowais Qassim Ali]

All those who tried to avoid 'barelwism' in the name of fighting sectarianism ended up creating their own sect, adding one more division to the ummah (plumberis, minhajis, ghaamidis, maudidi)

Not a single Individual mended ties between the ummah by Rejecting Ala Hazrat and that's simply because maslake ala hazrat IS sunnism in the Subcontinent

As shk abu Hasan beautifully quotes mulla Ali qari;

"Ever if there remains a single faqih (upright Sunni scholar) who is on a mountain peak, it is as if HE is the jama’ah"

 

[Oowais Qassim Ali]

The "barelwi" label's existence is entirely dependant on the existence of deobandis, if deobandis did not exist, we would simply be known as the maturidis of hind even if other deviant groups like the shias & wahabis existed.

But on the flipside, if barelwis didn't exist, deobandis would still not be known as the traditional normative maturidis of hind, because of their takfeer on istighaathah, belief in imkanul kizb, belief that Allah is everywhere, tabdee' of Mawlid celebration etc, they would still have been the black sheep

 

[BrotherJam]

People who run from the eponym Barelwi say things like: Bareilly is in India and I'm born in Bradford. So I'm not a Barelwi.

Fine. Don't be one. But your logic stinks.

---
I was born in Birmingham.
My imam was born in Maturid.
I'm a Maturidi.

I don't think your logic works either. Maturīdi is not a place label in the casual sense. It refers to a defined, classical Sunni creed preserved by a recognised scholarly tradition. Saying “I’m Maturīdi” makes a clear theological claim, regardless of where you were born. I don't believe “Barelwi” functions like that.

I guess a more accurate comparison would be:
An imam follows the Maturīdi creed, teaches it in Birmingham, becomes influential, and later his followers start calling themselves “Birminghamis.” That label clearly tells you nothing new about aqīdah or even fiqh. It’s sociological, not theological and entirely unnecessary.

The term Barelwi is needless, in my opinion. We already have clear and meaningful identifiers: Sunni - Ashʿarī/Maturīdi. Imams who preach this label and go around promoting it would be better served teaching the actual creed that Imam Ahmad Rida Khan followed, and making it clear that he was firmly and unquestionably Sunni. There is far more value in that than in defending or shouting a label that adds no theological clarity and only confuses people.

For laypeople, the term only creates confusion. Labels create groups, and extra group labels inevitably create fault lines, even when no new beliefs are being introduced. Whatever the intention, that’s the practical outcome on the ground.

And there’s another issue: if you choose to adopt and defend a label, you can’t then be shocked when others use that same label - sometimes loosely, sometimes unfairly. That is the predictable consequence of normalising it.

 

[abu Hasan]

I don't think your logic works either.

maturidi means i follow imam abu mansur maturidi.
and when devbandis also claim to be maturidi, we have an additional differentiator: barelwi.
i.e. among those who call themselves maturidi, we are followers of imam ahmad rida khan barelwi.

The term Barelwi is needless, in my opinion.

fair enough. you are entitled to your opinion. but you don't seem to know the history.

we have always referred to ourselves as sunnis. devbandis and others began to term us barelwis

For laypeople, the term only creates confusion. Labels create groups, and extra group labels inevitably create fault lines, even when no new beliefs are being introduced. Whatever the intention, that’s the practical outcome on the ground.

we did not create this label. it was imposed upon us.

And there’s another issue: if you choose to adopt and defend a label, you can’t then be shocked when others use that same label - sometimes loosely, sometimes unfairly.

you got your logic upside down. this is why i suspected that you may not be aware of history. read some of the older posts in this thread - and also watch a video in which shaykhul islam madani miyan explains the matter.

 

[sherkhan]

The term Barelwi is needless, in my opinion. We already have clear and meaningful identifiers: Sunni - Ashʿarī/Maturīdi. Imams who preach this label and go around promoting it would be better served teaching the actual creed that Imam Ahmad Rida Khan followed, and making it clear that he was firmly and unquestionably Sunni. There is far more value in that than in defending or shouting a label that adds no theological clarity and only confuses people.

I would argue that the label "barelwi" is a necessity. Because wolves started wearing sheep's clothings, sheep needed to dye their wool or get "wool-mark"ed differently. Otherwise, the risk of getting their lamb eaten/stolen becomes very high. This is a time-honoured tradition of addressing any new fitna that arises.

For laypeople, the term only creates confusion. Labels create groups, and extra group labels inevitably create fault lines, even when no new beliefs are being introduced. Whatever the intention, that’s the practical outcome on the ground.

Who are these laypeople you are worried about? Are these arabs or sunnis outside sub-continent? If so, then we "barelwis" always go about with sunni label; but if that layman confuses deobandis to be sunni too, we bring out the barelwi card. As you see, "barelwi" label is not to cause confusion, but to remove it and to disambiguate. We are not people of taqiyya, so we don't hesitate to take the card/badge when needed.

If by laypeople you mean those less well-versed, simpletons, then I would say that such layman wouldn't even know what being maturidi means.

As @abu Hasan mentioned this label was accorded to us by dayabina. Other labels are quburis, raza khanis etc., but "barelwi" is the one we are happy and very proud to wear. If it grates laypeople (who you're very concerned about), so be it!

Barelwi is a sociological tag, not a creedal school.

On one hand, you profess ignorance about the differences; on the other, you have convinced yourself that the tag is sociological! How have you arrived at such conclusion, despite ignorance?

No, the tag is creedal, since the differences with deobandis is creedal.

 

[BrotherJam]

maturidi means i follow imam abu mansur maturidi.
and when devbandis also claim to be maturidi, we have an additional differentiator: barelwi.
i.e. among those who call themselves maturidi, we are followers of imam ahmad rida khan barelwi.


fair enough. you are entitled to your opinion. but you don't seem to know the history.

we have always referred to ourselves as sunnis. devbandis and others began to term us barelwis

we did not create this label. it was imposed upon us.

you got your logic upside down. this is why i suspected that you may not be aware of history. read some of the older posts in this thread - and also watch a video in which shaykhul islam madani miyan explains the matter.

Forgive me - I’m not sure what “devbandis” is meant to refer to. If you mean Deobandis that have been deemed deviant, that’s already another label, which rather proves my wider point here.

I’m not an expert on the Barelwi/Deobandi history, but I’ve read enough to understand what’s going on. I deliberately didn’t go deeper because there are more important aspects of Islam I’d rather focus on.

I partially accept the argument that the term was “imposed upon us.” However, from my own experience growing up in Britain with Pakistani parents, I’ve often seen the term used proudly and even boasted about as an identity marker. At that point, people are no longer merely enduring a label - they are actively adopting and promoting it. It be interesting to head the number of British Muslims that use the term

Once a label is adopted in that way, it will inevitably be used loosely and unfairly. That isn’t upside down logic; it’s simply how labels function in the real world.

Needing a “differentiator” doesn’t automatically justify this differentiator. Barelwi is a sociological tag, not a creedal school. It doesn’t clarify disputed points for laypeople. Unfortunately, it mostly signals my camp vs. yours.

It’s also worth noting, having reread your post, that there’s a tension in your position. On the one hand, you say the term Barelwi was imposed upon you by others. On the other hand, you argue that it’s a necessary differentiator. Those two claims pull in opposite directions!

 

[BrotherJam]

If it grates laypeople (who you're very concerned about), so be it!

I’m not sure why you highlighted that I’m apparently “very concerned about laypeople.” I’d argue it’s the reality on the ground.

I’m speaking from what I actually see around me. There is a large and growing number of British Muslim youth who are actively questioning the whole Barelwi/Deobandi dispute to the point that they don’t want to attach themselves to it at all. Not because they’re confused, but because they see it as inherited factionalism that does nothing for their Iman.

Most Muslims are laypeople. Most young Muslims are already struggling to hold onto basic practice and belief in a secular society. To brush that off with “if it grates laypeople, so be it” isn’t some hard headed, principled stance - it’s detached from reality.

If a term consistently alienates ordinary Muslims and causes them to switch off from Sunni discourse altogether, dismissing that concern is nonsensical.

 

[abu Hasan]

It’s also worth noting, having reread your post, that there’s a tension in your position.

ha ha.

brother, looks like you are new here or newly discovered our forum.

 

[sherkhan]

It is a general rule of taxonomy (the science of classification and systematics) that when a new sub-species is found, then the existing/original species also gets relabelled (or hyphenated) and re-designated as the nominotypical subspecies, which formally includes the original species name in its trinomen (three-part name). This convention ensures that the newly recognised variant is deemed separate from the original one.

So after deobandi (i.e. -maturidi-wahhabi) were discovered in certain land (Indian subcontinent), the "original" sunnis of that land were redesignated as sunni-maturidi-barelwi


Labels have purpose. No need to be defensive about it.

 

[abu Hasan]

Not because they’re confused, but because they see it as inherited factionalism that does nothing for their Iman.

what exactly have you done for the betterment of iman of other muslims?

 

[sherkhan]

I’m not sure why you highlighted that I’m apparently “very concerned about laypeople.” I’d argue it’s the reality on the ground.

I’m speaking from what I actually see around me. There is a large and growing number of British Muslim youth who are actively questioning the whole Barelwi/Deobandi dispute to the point that they don’t want to attach themselves to it at all. Not because they’re confused, but because they see it as inherited factionalism that does nothing for their Iman.

Most Muslims are laypeople. Most young Muslims are already struggling to hold onto basic practice and belief in a secular society. To brush that off with “if it grates laypeople, so be it” isn’t some hard headed, principled stance - it’s detached from reality.

If a term consistently alienates ordinary Muslims and causes them to switch off from Sunni discourse altogether, dismissing that concern is nonsensical.

Your diagnosis of the "real" problem is incorrect, hence your suggested remedy is even worse.

What has "barelwi" term got to do with "young Muslims already struggling to hold onto basic practice and belief in a secular society"? Who's responsible for their struggle? At the same time, these confused young folks also want to steer clear of factionalism? So they do what, jump to wahhabism or atheism?

I have personally met hundreds of people who claim to be very non-partisan, express distaste for factionalism (not just deobandi-barelwi, but even salafi-sunni-shia), and want to be just pure, unhyphenated "Muslims". Tell you what, these very people don't even know ABC of Islam, rarely perform salah etc. - and invariably these are closet non-sunnis.

Is it just the barelwi label that is causing confusion? Would these young, confused folks also be less alienated (and better guided) if "sunni" label is also done away with?

 

[abu Hasan]

If a term consistently alienates ordinary Muslims and causes them to switch off from Sunni discourse altogether, dismissing that concern is nonsensical.

people have been whining about this for decades now. they are 'troubled' by the label - as if they are moving the mountains or draining the ocean for the betterment of the ummah!

whether you like it or not, barelwi is a term here to stay - that identifies the proper sunnis from the subcontinent. sunnis who are maturidis adn NOT sympathetic to wahabis, rafizis, tafzilis, minhajis, maududis and anyone that is not compatible with the aqidah of ahl al-sunnah.

i don't know whether it is jealousy or lack of foresight - but if you have been following trends over the past 50 years - various scholars who claimed to be sunni, and went astray and were quick to doff the 'barelwi' label. it was easy for the multitude to identify them and stay away from them.

 

[abu Hasan]

What has "barelwi" term got to do with "young Muslims already struggling to hold onto basic practice and belief in a secular society"?

in fact, 'barelwis' are the easiest to use as punching bags. anything non-shariah is easily added to 'barelwis' account without second thought, even by some scholars who ought to know better.

the monumental effort in all fields of writing, teaching etc - by scholars who are proud to wear the badge of 'barelwi' indicating that we closely follow alahazrat.

i will repost an old post.

am i a barelwi? yes, of course.

"but on occasions, you have said that you are sunni and not barelwi - so why the change of heart?"

----
there is no change of heart. alahazrat is a barelwi by his domicile. by extension, his followers are known as barelwi. alahazrat imam ahmad rida khan was an imam of ahl al-sunnah and identified himself as a sunni. anyway, as it happens in this world, certain appellations catch on, and sunnis are known as barelwis in the subcontinent.

the enemies of ahl al-sunnah - wahabis, devbandis etc. - began to use the term 'barelwi' as a pejorative and tried to push it as a term for a sect, or for those who have deviated from the sunnah. in fact, antics of sufi-claimants and ugly innovations are all attributed to 'barelwism' without second thought.

for example a madcap heretic like tahir jhangvi is termed a 'barelwi' and insisted upon, whereas neither are his actions are permitted by alahazrat, nor does the person (i.e. tahir himself) wishes to be called a barelwi.

----
when ISIS or some other terrorist group commits some outrage, kuffar routinely blame islam and muslims. then, everybody takes pains to make the differentiation between islam and the 'islam-claimed-by-terrorists'. yet, these people do not hesitate when slandering alahazrat or sunnis from the subcontinent.

alahazrat or "barelwis" should be measured by the fatawa of their imam and not by what some followers do or say.

----
nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.

---------
when some attack - terrorist or otherwise - happens in the world, people proudly proclaim that they stand together with the victims by slogans such as: 'we are all parisian". f'example, see here.

when ahl al-sunnah is attacked by defaming and slandering 'barelwis' or the followers of alahazrat; and by implication, the imam of ahl al-sunnah - sunnis should stand together in solidarity with the sunnis from the subcontinent.

yes, i am a barelwi.​

(posted in 2017, see post #2 in this very thread)

 

[BrotherJam]

Your diagnosis of the "real" problem is incorrect, hence your suggested remedy is even worse.

What has "barelwi" term got to do with "young Muslims already struggling to hold onto basic practice and belief in a secular society"? Who's responsible for their struggle? At the same time, these confused young folks also want to steer clear of factionalism? So they do what, jump to wahhabism or atheism?

You’ve distorted what I said and clearly got the wrong end of the stick:
I did not say the “Barelwi” label is responsible for secularisation or for young Muslims struggling with belief. What I said was: most Muslims are laypeople, many young Muslims are already weak in practice, and adding inherited factional labels on top of that confuses and alienates them. Those are not the same claims.

“Who’s responsible for their struggle?” is a red herring.
That question has nothing to do with the point being made. This isn’t about assigning blame for secularisation. It’s about whether importing a historically scholarly dispute into mass identity formation helps or hinders lay Muslims today.

I don't know whether you were being facetious. But, "So they jump to wahhabism or atheism?” is a false dilemma. Rejecting factionalism/needless labelling does not mean abandoning Sunni Islam. Many Muslims simply want to practise the basics without inheriting subcontinental polemics. Presenting only two exits is not an argument; it’s rhetoric. In fact many of the Ummah do practice Islam without involving them in subcontinental polemics.

My opinion still stands - most Muslims are laypeople, many young Muslims are already struggling, and turning what was once a scholarly debate into a mass identity label does more harm than good. Calling that concern “confusion” misses the reality on the ground.

 

[sherkhan]

You’ve distorted what I said and clearly got the wrong end of the stick:
I did not say the “Barelwi” label is responsible for secularisation or for young Muslims struggling with belief. What I said was: most Muslims are laypeople, many young Muslims are already weak in practice, and adding inherited factional labels on top of that confuses and alienates them. Those are not the same claims.

“Who’s responsible for their struggle?” is a red herring.
That question has nothing to do with the point being made. This isn’t about assigning blame for secularisation. It’s about whether importing a historically scholarly dispute into mass identity formation helps or hinders lay Muslims today.

I don't know whether you were being facetious. But, "So they jump to wahhabism or atheism?” is a false dilemma. Rejecting factionalism/needless labelling does not mean abandoning Sunni Islam. Many Muslims simply want to practise the basics without inheriting subcontinental polemics. Presenting only two exits is not an argument; it’s rhetoric. In fact many of the Ummah do practice Islam without involving them in subcontinental polemics.

My opinion still stands - most Muslims are laypeople, many young Muslims are already struggling, and turning what was once a scholarly debate into a mass identity label does more harm than good. Calling that concern “confusion” misses the reality on the ground.

Don't get me wrong; I appreciate your concern for Muslims. But I disagree that factionalism (as if barelwis are the ones to have deviated from sawaad-e-azam) if cured (or wished away) will bring the confused folks back.

These same simple folks go to great length researching the specifications to minutiae when buying the latest gadget/mobile/car, but wouldn't be bothered to understand the basics and practices of Islam. If only they aplied the same diligence to understand the polemics, their imaan would be strengthened and they would be better guided!

On the persistent moon-sighting controversy in the UK, one of my acquaintances remarked that he was too confused by the scholarly fuss and invariably such confusion always led him to follow Saudi moonsighting (and never the other way round)! I had to counter him that when it came to making business decisions or deciding which mortgage to take would he follow the same path and take the first one available?

 

[BrotherJam]

what exactly have you done for the betterment of iman of other muslims?

What a strange things to say. What has this got to do with anything?

I’m not claiming to be anyone’s spiritual guide. I’m simply describing what I see and making an argument about factionalism affects ordinary Muslims.

Either engage with that point or stop turning it into a personal jab.

 

[abu Hasan]

What has this got to do with anything?

it was a reply to your complaint.

I’m speaking from what I actually see around me. There is a large and growing number of British Muslim youth who are actively questioning the whole Barelwi/Deobandi dispute to the point that they don’t want to attach themselves to it at all. Not because they’re confused, but because they see it as inherited factionalism that does nothing for their Iman.