Fascist Hindu india (and ghazwah e hind)

abu Hasan said:
with due respect to all the mashayikh who may have supported jinnah in relation to pakistan. a lot of it is hearsay, and dreams etc. as i have said, i won't argue against it - but where are any documents backing these claims (from mashayikh as well?)

i feel jinnah is being lionised as a primarily muslim leader whose vision was a 'second madinah' in pakistan. i can understand that pakistanis desperately cling to this idea of a sufi, sunni, ashiq-e-rasul jinnah. but what is apparent from documents is that he was a secular politician who helped create pakistan.

Allah ta'ala knows best.

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the controversial "missing" speech of jinnah to the constituent assembly is cited by secularists as proof of jinnah's vision for pakistan as a secular state. it is claimed that hte speech was destroyed. i am just stating the case - not taking sides. with the disclaimer that i am a proud muslim, who wishes for a muslim pakistan and who unequivocally supports the vision of pakistan to be an sunni-islamic country.

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24034873

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aside:
mawlana sahib got carried away and translated literally: 'my Lord smiles' though he does, qualify it as 'befitting his majesty'. but it would have been better if he either avoided the expression completely or

yes, there is a hadith that can be literally translated as: 'smiles' or 'laughs'. but should be clarified at any rate.
[see bayhaqi's al-asma'a wa's sifat, vol.2 p.401: 'on what has been reported concerning DaHk/laugh']:

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With due respect brother Abu Hasan.
Secular Jinnah is just a myth which Pakistans secular liberal qadiani brigade propagate.

Here is a good book whicu debunk the myth

http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/bookshop/product/Secular Jinnah & Pakistan/9781906628222

A video where Quaid e azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah destroy ethnic nationalism within Indian muslims.

Allama Iqbals friend Leopold Weiss Muhammad Assad.

 
sunnimuslim said:
Bayan by Allama Pirzada Saqib Raza Mustafai on Pakistan, Ghazwa e hind
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I respect mawlana sahib and say aameen to all his prayers and hope with him that Pakistan becomes a model and truly Islamic state.

but the way mawlana has quoted dream-reports to attribute something, positively and with certainty, to rasulAllah (peace be upon him), scares me.

we cannot attribute to rasulAllah (peace be upon him) things - even if they are cent percent factual - unless their authenticity can be established within reasonable bounds.

Of-course, rasulAllah (peace be upon him) cares for his ummah more than we care for ourselves - and so he assuredly cares for the sunnis of Pakistan too - but once you single out a geographic region or name a group of people - you need strong evidence for that - and if that evidence is dreams alone - and dreams of people whose uprightness is not known - merely basing it on husn-zann - then the least we can do is insert a word of caution - or something to dilute it's absolute certainty.

Maybe it's true that Pakistan - and not India, nor Bangladesh - is the "hind" mentioned in the reports and maybe the dreams are true - but that "maybe" has it's worth and it cannot be eliminated altogether.

A short read on authentication of reports based on kashf: http://www.livingislam.org/k/qumh_e.html (do read the last answer as well).

Maybe mawlana saqib didn't mean the attribution to be taken as absolutely certain - but he should have chosen his words more carefully.

See the chaos that "dreams" have caused to our people - we want less and not more of this.

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As for Iqbal's poetry, you can read it here: http://iqbalurdu.blogspot.in/2011/03/bang-e-dra-042-hindustani-bachon-ka.html

It includes the following lines too:


The garden in which Nanak sang the song of Tawhid of God

Whose denizens are Kaleems, whose mountains the Sinais are
Where the Prophet Nuh’s boat and its occupants had landed


should we also confirm nanak's Islam - or monotheism - based on these lines? And that Sayyiduna Nuh ('alayhis salaam)'s mega-vessel landed in Pakistan? and therefore mount Judiy is somewhere in Pakistan? Our Turkish brothers will not be happy to hear that ...

Allah ta'ala knows best.
 
Unbeknown said:
I respect mawlana sahib and say aameen to all his prayers and hope with him that Pakistan becomes a model and truly Islamic state.

but the way mawlana has quoted dream-reports to attribute something, positively and with certainty, to rasulAllah (peace be upon him), scares me.

we cannot attribute to rasulAllah (peace be upon him) things - even if they are cent percent factual - unless their authenticity can be established within reasonable bounds.

Of-course, rasulAllah (peace be upon him) cares for his ummah more than we care for ourselves - and so he assuredly cares for the sunnis of Pakistan too - but once you single out a geographic region or name a group of people - you need strong evidence for that - and if that evidence is dreams alone - and dreams of people whose uprightness is not known - merely basing it on husn-zann - then the least we can do is insert a word of caution - or something to dilute it's absolute certainty.

Maybe it's true that Pakistan - and not India, nor Bangladesh - is the "hind" mentioned in the reports and maybe the dreams are true - but that "maybe" has it's worth and it cannot be eliminated altogether.

A short read on authentication of reports based on kashf: http://www.livingislam.org/k/qumh_e.html (do read the last answer as well).

Maybe mawlana saqib didn't mean the attribution to be taken as absolutely certain - but he should have chosen his words more carefully.

See the chaos that "dreams" have caused to our people - we want less and not more of this.

------------

As for Iqbal's poetry, you can read it here: http://iqbalurdu.blogspot.in/2011/03/bang-e-dra-042-hindustani-bachon-ka.html

It includes the following lines too:


The garden in which Nanak sang the song of Tawhid of God

Whose denizens are Kaleems, whose mountains the Sinais are
Where the Prophet Nuh’s boat and its occupants had landed


should we also confirm nanak's Islam - or monotheism - based on these lines? And that Sayyiduna Nuh ('alayhis salaam)'s mega-vessel landed in Pakistan? and therefore mount Judiy is somewhere in Pakistan? Our Turkish brothers will not be happy to hear that ...

Allah ta'ala knows best.
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I think we should left it to Molana Sahib. He is the most influental Alim in Pakistan.
 
Allama Khadim Hussain Rizvi on Allama Iqbal (r).




Unbeknown said:
I respect mawlana sahib and say aameen to all his prayersand hope with him that Pakistan becomes a model and truly Islamic state.

but the way mawlana has quoted dream-reports to attribute something, positively and with certainty, to rasulAllah (peace be upon him), scares me.

we cannot attribute to rasulAllah (peace be upon him) things - even if they are cent percent factual - unless their authenticity can be established within reasonable bounds.

Of-course, rasulAllah (peace be upon him) cares for his ummah more than we care for ourselves - and so he assuredly cares for the sunnis of Pakistan too - but once you single out a geographic region or name a group of people - you need strong evidence for that - and if that evidence is dreams alone - and dreams of people whose uprightness is not known - merely basing it on husn-zann - then the least we can do is insert a word of caution - or something to dilute it's absolute certainty.

Maybe it's true that Pakistan - and not India, nor Bangladesh - is the "hind" mentioned in the reports and maybe the dreams are true - but that "maybe" has it's worth and it cannot be eliminated altogether.

A short read on authentication of reports based on kashf: http://www.livingislam.org/k/qumh_e.html (do read the last answer as well).

Maybe mawlana saqib didn't mean the attribution to be taken as absolutely certain - but he should have chosen his words more carefully.

See the chaos that "dreams" have caused to our people - we want less and not more of this.

------------

As for Iqbal's poetry, you can read it here: http://iqbalurdu.blogspot.in/2011/03/bang-e-dra-042-hindustani-bachon-ka.html

It includes the following lines too:


The garden in which Nanak sang the song of Tawhid of God

Whose denizens are Kaleems, whose mountains the Sinais are
Where the Prophet Nuh’s boat and its occupants had landed


should we also confirm nanak's Islam - or monotheism - based on these lines? And that Sayyiduna Nuh ('alayhis salaam)'s mega-vessel landed in Pakistan? and therefore mount Judiy is somewhere in Pakistan? Our Turkish brothers will not be happy to hear that ...

Allah ta'ala knows best.
Click to expand...

I think we should left it to Molana Sahib. He is the m
 
Unbeknown said:
but once you single out a geographic region or name a group of people
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exactly.

how many muslims were left behind in india? the price for pakistan is being paid by indian muslims. what muslims in pakistan made of that country is a different story - but because we had to stay behind (mostly because it was not feasible. and it was not logistically viable) we are taunted and reminded regularly of that and we are reduced to second class citizens.

think of excuses for this. who is responsible? and what should our forefathers have done? and what happened to those who migrated to pakistan? why did MQM become a reality?

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two nations theory - as in we muslims are different from others, is a fact. but geographical separation was not a sustainable model. muslims of yore spread out and established islam where there wasn't any. according to this concept of pakistan, muslims were told to be uprooted from their homes of centuries - millions of masjids abandoned and graveyards left to waste.

does this sound sensible?

sub'HanAllah.
 
sunnimuslim said:
Allama Khadim Hussain Rizvi on Allama Iqbal (r).
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i did not watch the clip, and with due respect to mawlana khadim hussain rizvi - dreams and claims of visions of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam are not enough.

when you read his "religious reformation of islam" which is not a translation, but iqbal's own writing, it is clear that his knowledge of islam was superficial, and knowledge patchy - certainly not someone who had properly read a few standard textbooks of islam.

i like iqbal too for some reasons, but not as an islamic scholar or someone whose opinions should be cited in religious discourse.
a short essay on iqbal - what i think of him - has been playing on my mind for some time now. in sha'Allah.

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having been raised on strictness in words we choose to describe angels, prophets etc. iqbal's poetry commits scores of sacrileges. alahazrat would never permit such bad adab or use of such words.

Allah ta'ala knows best.



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sunnimuslim said:
I think we should left it to Molana Sahib. He is the most influental Alim in Pakistan.
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most influential is not a criterion. does he have proof for what he says and can withstand critical scrutiny is the key.

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i can quote iqbal on this 'freedom to think' and censure of 'blind following'.

nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
 
my personal view is both jinnah and iqbal did good things for muslims, but they should be treated as two other political leaders and thinkers.
i refuse to accept that they were divinely ordained and annointed messiahs. nor can i accept iqbal's poetry as proof for religious matters.

ironically, one of iqbal's finest poem is against this nationalism (based on geographic boundaries).

Allah ta'ala knows best.
 
abu Hasan said:
my personal view is both jinnah and iqbal did good things for muslims, but they should be treated as two other political leaders and thinkers.
i refuse to accept that they were divinely ordained and annointed messiahs.
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You have stirred a hornet's nest (and you will likely have fallen in several Pakistani's estimates!). Expect tons of brickbats.

To Pakistanis, Jinnah and Iqbal are icons, anointed national heros; just as for every Indian Bengali, Rabindranath Tagore, Subhash Bose, Satyajit Ray & Saurav Ganguly are demi-gods (Indians on this forum will immediately understand the parallel, else see here). These heros can't do anything wrong and every achievement (big or small) is due or traceable to them.

What gals me the most is that while it is understandable that masses in Pakistan would revere Jinnah & Iqbal, it is nauseating to see every sunni aalim do the same in public. I could be wrong but I think our ulemas are more guilty of this than deobandi ones; since the latter anyway don't think highly of wilayah.

Quaid-e-Azam & Allama titles are fine, but Hazrat, rahmatullah alayhi etc are (to my mind) misplaced.

As aH said, both these personalities have made tremendous contribution, but to exalt them to the status of high-ranking awliya is to demean the office of wilayah.


disclaimer: I am an Indian, and I don't have any sense of nationalism (an anti-nationalist, in current sense)
 
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abu Hasan said:
millions of masjids abandoned and graveyards left to waste.
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I have heard that mufti-e-aazam-e-hind, the younger son of alahazrat, chided the people who were running pell-mell into Pakistan, leaving behind their mosques and graveyards - that is when he wrote his famous amal-e-be-nazeer and asked the people to stay put, defend their deen and property and recite this wird as a shield against the onslaught of the hindoos - and the villages where it was initiated indeed remained safe (this account is similar to that of dua-al-naasiri).
 
sunnimuslim said:
Allama Iqbals friend Leopold Weiss Muhammad Assad.
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was a friend and great admirer of the najdi regime and Abdal-Aziz Ibn-Saud - read his "Road to Mecca".

his acquaintance with the blood-thirsty monarch began shortly after the second occupation of Hijaz muqaddas by the barbarous najdi madmen.

Muhammad Asad was a well-read and well-traveled intellectual - how could he not know the brutalities and massacres that rolled the bloody-drenched carpet upon which the aal-al-saud dynasty sashayed to power?

And yet, in his book, he chose to sanitize the image of abdal aziz and family as some "noble, well-bred and bounteous" Muslim rulers.

I doubt he would have done a great-job "reconstructing" Islam - that is the job for a Mujaddid!
 
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Allama Khadim Hussain Rizvi admires Iqbal (Ra) for the same reason that other Sunnis do in Pakistan: he was a true ashiq e Rasool by the end of his life and his later poetry (Armaghan e Hijaz and Bal e Gibril) especially Zarb e Kaleem and the Farsi edition of Armaghan (most of his poetry is in Farsi this unknown to most people) reflect this. Yes he went through many different phases in his life and that's why he has often contradictory poems if you compare his earlier work (more secular) to his latter (much more Islamist). I believe like most Pakistani Sunni ulama that by the end of his life he was a wali but no one has to believe that (,his meetings with Data Sahib to get lassi in the flesh as recorded by his servant are evidence) but everyone believes he was an ashiq e Rasool. His stance on the issue of Ghazi Ilmuddin Shaheed ist evidence for that. This is why now secularists are trying to take Iqbal out of the syllabus in Pakistan because of he at the end wanted a Shariah based country and declared war against modernity and secularism. The subtitle to his last book Zarb e Kaleem is "dawr e hazir Kay khilaaf ilaan e Jang" (déclaration of war against the current age).
I guess my point is you can't pull out poetry he wrote in his 20s or 30s as an argument against him.as , like many people, his views evolved to the point where he is said to have yearned for Medina in his last days before he passed away. He wrote
"Aarzoo y ma zi naam e oost". Our honour is only from His name (Muhammad Sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).
 
I also understand why it must be hard for Indians to see Iqbal as we Pakistanis do. But partition has happened and won't unhappen (no matter how much those paleed Hindutva kafirs like Modi who drinks gao-mutra wish it Akhand Bharat or Greater India won't happen) so the best Muslims can do on both sides is protect their Islam but I feel that as the majority Muslim country it is Pakistan future and current role to protect the Muslims of the entire subcontinent first and especially our brethren in Kashmir against the baniya. I hope that one day soon it becomes official policy of Pakistan to allow any oppressed Muslim in the world who wishes to to move to Pakistan and get citizenship just as any jew can get Israeli citizenship since it's the only country made in the name of Islam. And insha'Allah next year in the elections we will see the rise of Islam in the elections with Sunni political parties at the fore for the first time. Dekho Dekho Kawn Aaya: Muhammad e Arabi Ka Deen Aaya! Labbayk Ya Rasool.Allah!
 
naqshbandi said:
you can't pull out poetry he wrote in his 20s or 30s as an argument against him
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agreed. but he did not repent or show any regret on this either.

naqshbandi said:
he was a true ashiq e Rasool by the end of his life and his later poetry
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look, i personally would ignore his flaws for his memorable maqta'a of jawab e shikwah. all of this is fine. but just don't use his poetry as proof for islamic rulings.
 
naqshbandi said:
I also understand why it must be hard for Indians to see Iqbal as we Pakistanis do.
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we only look at him as a poetic genius and a brilliant mind, a thinker; who was sincere in his love of Islam and genuinely concerned for the well-being of muslims. only that, and nothing more.
 
abu Hasan said:
agreed. but he did not repent or show any regret on this either.


look, i personally would ignore his flaws for his memorable maqta'a of jawab e shikwah. all of this is fine. but just don't use his poetry as proof for islamic rulings.
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I agree. But I don't think any aalim in Pakistan uses Iqbal's poetry as proof for rulings - yes they quote him in their speeches to drive home their point.
 
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