Ghulam Ali
Well-Known Member
All due respect brother From the Two Problems the issue of Fatwa of out of fold of AhleSunnat is the bigger problem here which is causing disunity and confusion amongst Sunni awam
Fadak and khatā
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All due respect brother From the Two Problems the issue of Fatwa of out of fold of AhleSunnat is the bigger problem here which is causing disunity and confusion amongst Sunni awam
AbdalQadir
time to move along! will check pm's.
Brother, can you please define "conclusion".
Jalali is arrested. A fatwa has been passed by the opposing party. Statements have also been issued by the for party.
Please do let me know which event will signify the finish line for this fiasco.
Well noted.
What exactly is that "more", or do you not want to share it?
When will that be? And again, what event will signify this reality becoming clear?
It is clear that this was no accident and behind it there is a pre-planned agenda, which is obviously linked to the politics of the country. When this agenda becomes clear, we will be better placed to comment.
The fatwa that you are alluding to is being and will be scrutinized by the ulema, and a judgement will be passed.
To avoid this becoming rife in the UK. We need to tackle the issues that I have aforementioned and what should also be added is the issue of Tafdhlism and the supposed Nasabism in our ranks. These don't get solved by public refutations and emotional speeches but by creating code of conducts and raising awareness amongst our Sunni public. This requires lobbying our scholars and organisations.
The fatwa that you are alluding to is being and will be scrutinized by the ulema, and a judgement will be passed.
To avoid this becoming rife in the UK. We need to tackle the issues that I have aforementioned and what should also be added is the issue of Tafdhlism and the supposed Nasabism in our ranks. These don't get solved by public refutations and emotional speeches but by creating code of conducts and raising awareness amongst our Sunni public. This requires lobbying our scholars and organisations.
We need to look at ways in how we can strengthen our ranks. If the ulema don't want to, then we need to use our voice and lobby them. Like @Ghulam Ali pointed out, principles before personalities but with the intention of minimising divisions. When we blindly follow personalities or even just loosely disavow them, then these divisions just increase. We must respect our ulema but when principles are being disregarded, we need to respectfully challenge this too. We have a lot more power than we realise, so we need to sincerely use this for the betterment of the maslak.
Being pro Jalali sahib or against Shah sahib is not going to solve anything, especially when we are not on the ground.
Being pro Jalali sahib or against Shah sahib is not going to solve anything, especially when we are not on the ground.
The reason why I am not more pro Jalali sahib is that their initial response to this issue further strengthened the hand of the opposition. Now there might be a valid reason for them not to take their initial statement back but at this moment (without the full facts being known) I don't see how that stance benefited sunnis. By taking the statement back does not necessitate negation of khata e ijtihadi or promoton of aqeeda e masoomiyat for the Ahl ul Bayt. There was scope for both taking the statement back and clarifying the Sunni viewpoint. As things stand, I feel this would have been the better approach.
That leaves the opposition and their behaviour has already been condemned. I am staying quiet over Shah sahib (and Jalali sahib) until their motives become clear. We need to remain objective.
What we do condemn is the swearing and abusive language because it is ugly and not befitting of a scholar to speak like that.
The lack of signatures of the fatwa speaks volumes about its credibility, especially as a lot more scholars were vocal at the start in speaking out against Jalali sahib.
Once again let the motives become clear on all sides before passing judgement
That leaves the opposition and their behaviour has already been condemned. I am staying quiet over Shah sahib (and Jalali sahib) until their motives become clear. We need to remain objective.
What we do condemn is the swearing and abusive language because it is ugly and not befitting of a scholar to speak like that.
The lack of signatures of the fatwa speaks volumes about its credibility, especially as a lot more scholars were vocal at the start in speaking out against Jalali sahib.
Once again let the motives become clear on all sides before passing judgement
So what about:
1. Using the terms mahfuz and ma'sum interchangeably.
2. Implying that Jalali sahib is kafir.
3. Calling Dr Jalali a harami.
4. Saying Dr Jalali is an insulter of Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها.
5. Saying that attributing khata to Sayyidah رضي الله عنها is kufr.
6. Saying that attributing khata to prophets is kufr.
7. Allowing a man to say masumah for sayyidah رضي الله عنها in your presence.
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My point is, the creed of Ahl al-Sunnah has to be explained by our ulama, whether they name Sayyid Mash'hadi or not.
So even if you take him out the equation, the above were said publicly so our ulama have to comment on them.
1. Using the terms mahfuz and ma'sum interchangeably.
2. Implying that Jalali sahib is kafir.
3. Calling Dr Jalali a harami.
4. Saying Dr Jalali is an insulter of Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها.
5. Saying that attributing khata to Sayyidah رضي الله عنها is kufr.
6. Saying that attributing khata to prophets is kufr.
7. Allowing a man to say masumah for sayyidah رضي الله عنها in your presence.
---
My point is, the creed of Ahl al-Sunnah has to be explained by our ulama, whether they name Sayyid Mash'hadi or not.
So even if you take him out the equation, the above were said publicly so our ulama have to comment on them.
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AbdalQadir
time to move along! will check pm's.
Incredibly beghayrat, besharam, behaya, badbakht, mardood
The talk is riddled with logical and fiqh fallacies, some of which were answered in this thread itself by various people. If you want an autopsy, transcribe the talk, and I'm sure most people here can dismantle all those fallacies.
As I said, he's the next tahirul! Just wait and watch.
This issue is going in circles.
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AbdalQadir
time to move along! will check pm's.
Nobody is placing personalities above principles.
We are concerned only with principles here.
I for instance am not a Jalali fan. Same time last year, I didn't even consciously know him. Might have seen of him or heard of him in passing.
In other words, we wait, realistically speaking, anywhere from 6 months to 5 yrs to be able to comment on it in hindsight.
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ghulam-e-raza
Well-Known Member
Ghulam Ali
Well-Known Member
it’s not about pro or anti anyone. This is about aqida e ahlesunnat, there is no blind following in aqida.
this is what the conclusion must be based on, I don’t understand what eventuality you are waiting for and how you will determine motives of said individuals
Unbeknown
Senior Moderator
as if core Islamic usul and aqaid are subject to motives - this reeks of hansonism and kellerism.
as for individual personalities - a formal "judgement" is the forte of the Mufti or the Qadhi.
But of-course I will have my personal judgement (call it an opinion or belief if you will) about what and who is right or wrong - I can't suspend judgement on such basic AND crystal clear issues - especially after tons of senior ulama have spoken out and clarified it, even for lay people such as myself.
Unbeknown
Senior Moderator
coming from someone who has been following the discussion since the start - that's an interesting insinuation whose "motive" I am left pondering about.
silence is the only way to remain objective ... hmm ...
abu Hasan
Administrator
irfan shah will apologise for abusing someone's mother. that is not only a religious duty but also an akhlaqi farz - morally right thing to do.
irfan shah will state that ma'Sum when spoken in aqidah matters IS istilahi, meaning 'divinely protected' or 'immune from sin' applies only to prophets and angels. all others, including kibar among SaHabah and the ahl al-bayt are not immune from sin.
khata is a term that is practically harmless and has been used for prophets. in comparison, using this term for ahl al-bayt should not be a catastrophe. so if khata is used, it is neither insulting nor invites takfir nor melodrama.
that he expresses his remorse for jalali sahib's arrest; and that a bunch of neem-rafizis and full-rafizis ganged up on a sunni scholar which should not have happened.
i pray he does this. and if he does not, there will be a day when no one can escape - no one can join in support of unfair demands. and on that day justice will be done. that is the meaning of 'yawm al-faSl'.
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of course, he can be obstinate - and he knows better than us what has happened to obstinate people in the past.
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speeches will be forgotten. speech makers will also be forgotten. especially those who step out of sunni manhaj.
nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
dil sulagta hi bhalaa hai ay zabt
bujh bhi jaate hain dahakne waale
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The finish line is when we find out why Shah sahib has taken the approach he has (the evidence is pretty damming in this regard) and why Jalali sahib thought it best not to take back his words and quash the issue (what does he know want to achieve?) Neither stances as it stands have benefited Sunnis in terms of unity. Both sides agree that the beneficiaries of this have been Rafzis and Kharjis. It is clear there is an underlying agenda.
I 100% agree with @abu Hasan with the points he raised above. In sha Allah, sense and dard for the maslak and Haq will prevail.
I don't know what are you on about. For long, you seem to be suggesting cryptically as if you are privy to intention of either/one party. Based on what, private conversation with Mawlana Nabeel?
That's incorrect. Anti-Jalali camp has been in bed with shias. When have they agreed that "the beneficiaries of this have been Rafzis"? Even if you had said that anti-camp thinks beneficiaries are kharijis and pro- camp thinks beneficiaries are rafizis, you are wrong to say that both camps "agree".
Pray, tell us about it. Suspense waiting for the "finish line" is killing us!
Only near-term beneficiaries are shias and establishment/military puppet-master. Shias have managed to bring masoomiyat discourse and tafdhilism into sunni sphere. Establishment has managed to clip Dr Jalali's wings (as he was proving thorn in the flesh lately with his fire-brand stance and ability to galvanise sunni awaam). Liberals can now chuckle as anti-blasphemy law is turned on its head.
But ultimate beneficiaries will be awaam of ahl us-Sunnah. Jahils/munafiqs/pirs/tafdhilis/neem-rafizis have been found out. Bayts has been/will be broken. Illusion of scholarship has been shattered for good. Whether Dr Jalali survives this ordeal or not, he has well and truly exposed the undercurrent of baatil aqaid. That augurs well for future.
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abu Hasan
Administrator
unfortunately, this is the great balancing act of including the victim with the oppressor and blame both of them.
israel is committing crimes because of the palestinians and their refusal to accept the routine oppression of a mighty and merciless military force. both are responsible.
no?
abu Hasan
Administrator
No. When this issue first came out, it could have been quashed by two things:
Jalali sahib taking his words back
The opposition accepting his clarification.
All I am saying why didn't Jalali sahib just take his words back for the sake of quashing the issue. If it is as @sherkhan points out that it is to unmask all those with heterodox beliefs within our ranks, then that is great. He is going to destroy them (academically) in court. Let's see this happen first.
I agree with all the points @abu Hasan raised about Shah Sahib's involvement. On the outside, it feels like Shah Sahib has a personal issue with Jalali sahib and the likes of Syed Munawwar Jammati used that to make him his spokesperson. I now believe that what i was told about Shah Sahib's influence might have been exaggerated.
Is it going to play out as the brother @sherkhan concluded? Most likely. However, I don't see why you're not willing to wait for this issue to play out. Jalali sahib will get his time in court (something that he has repeatedly called for) and then after that, the matter will get decided.
I think the agenda is like Pir Ghufran Syalwi pointed out is to divide Sunnis so that our main political parties can't capitalise on the power vacuum that exists.