Fadak and khatā

It is very harsh, and I have no regrets.

It is indeed harsh. His latest slip notwithstanding, Sayyid Irfan Shah's services and his previous robust stand against shias/tafdhilis should not be belittled.

As I have pointed out before, anti-Jalali camp couldn't have conducted the hatchet job without Shah sahib as figurehead. Munawwar Jamaati, a Hanif Quraishi or any tut-punjiya maulvi would not have managed to counter-weigh Dr Jalali on this issue and the campaign would have fizzled without even a whimper. There are very few ulemas in UK and Pakistan who command Shah sahib's reputation as muqarrir. Mind you, Shah Sahib's history of public stand and staunch reputation against rafizis suited anti-Jalali camp to mount a credible attack on Dr Jalali.

I don't know whether it's an age/failing faculty issue or Shah sahib's gullibility/poor judgement or his succumbing to the temptation of being the ahl us-sunnah face/spokesman. I hope he realises the damage he has done to himself and his legacy.

In private, Shah sahib appears a very humble and soft-spoken person.
 
It is indeed harsh. His latest slip notwithstanding, Sayyid Irfan Shah's services and his previous robust stand against shias/tafdhilis should not be belittled.

I admit that it is very harsh, but the fitnah he is siding with and leading is more damaging than all the good he has done to ahlussunah. whatever he did in the past he himself has nullified all that.

If he takes back his fatwa and distance himself from all the tafzili tolah around him then we can respect him again being a sayyid and a sunni scholar, but the level of trust cannot remain the same on sunni aqaid.
 
Sayyid Irfan Shah's services and his previous robust stand against shias/tafdhilis should not be belittled.

that would have been the case if he didn't himself undo that very good work of the past.

if he just resorted to galis on a personal matter or another matter, we could've consoled ourselves 'at least he stands up to the wahabis, rafidis and the tafdilis' but he has attacked those very aqaid he defended in the past. he has really done rujoo3 from Sunniyat by attacking the 3aqidah of ma3soomiyat

I don't know whether it's an age/failing faculty issue or Shah sahib's gullibility/poor judgement or his succumbing to the temptation of being the ahl us-sunnah face/spokesman.

i was thinking of the same thing, but then actually giving an interview of 2 hrs with that tasleem sabri, and then giving a 9 minutes long gali of a speech says otherwise. it simply can't be given away to senility or a mere slip

had he just made a case of adab and kept silent, he might have gotten away with it, but he went on to elaborate extrapolations and so on.

he made a spectacle of the Ahlus Sunnah. it looked as disgusting as a family fight spilling on to the street

From there ppl started calling him titles like "Hujjut tul Islam' and so on. Honestly can anyone in their right mind compare him to the likes of Imam Ghazali (ra) to be conferred upon with such lofty titles?

this is the real issue with the Sunnis of the subcontinent.

they give lofty 7 lines long titles to people who don't even deserve to be called mawlana, and kiss just anyone's hands and feet

the other thing is that for all our egalitarianism, and anti-hereditary attitudes, we think that just because someone's father or grandfather was a shaykh or wali, that means any and everyone down the line will be the same.

as the saying goes, 'Allah peer banaye, peerzada na banaye'

it's just that these peerzadas (Sayyids or not) have a very high sense of entitlement. this problem exists in EVERY SINGLE khanwada of scholars/peers, even Ala Hazrat's - heritage above knowledge of deen.

some Sayyids think of themselves as equal to THE Ahlul Bayt of those times or at least the next best person after Ghawthe A3azam. i can see how someone would have felt their own statuses threatened- if the word khata was attributed to Sayyidah Fatimah radi Allahu 3anha, then what about present day Sayyids. people will question them too. (eventhough Irfan Shah himself blasted Mawdudi). sorry but this is something i feel needs to be said.

i'm not Sayyid myself, but closely related to a few.

i know one such peerzada in my extended family. his father was a well known wali. but he's no where close. just cashing in on 'we're x-th generation of Ghawthe A3azam's sons' and parading as a Shah saheb. his etiquettes are similar to Irfan Shah saheb's. just can't stand even the most minor of disagreements.

----

that mardood hanif qureshi said in one video, 'when he was defending the sahaba none of you guys got a heartburn. but when he defends his grandmother, you're all up in arms.'

someone should tell that mardood, when Irfan Shah defended the sahaba, he did use the word 'khata' for them (as did hanif beghayrat himself when he was supposedly praising Hazrat Ali). classic case of 'ulta chor kotwal ko daante'. was a very clever sentence to impute that we somehow have a Sahaba vs Ahlul Bayt mindset! he also exposed his latent rafidiyat with that sentence.

also in that gali conference, he tries to induce crocodile tears, 'i ask all you Sayyids, did Jalali's words not hurt your feelings?' and you should have seen munawwar jamati and some chamchas make a sade emoji face

----

Sunnis will NEVER get out of this rut, unless and until we stop

1. giving insanely lofty titles to peers/mawlanas or even plain idiots donning mawlana uniforms
2. considering naatkhwani as a source of 3aqidah and knowledge and promote jahil naatkhwan mafia
3. giving precedence to personalities above principles
4. giving preference to shola bayan taqreers full of naarebazi over actual seeking of knowledge

it's all a waste of time discussing these matters till then.
 
Last edited:
some Sayyids think of themselves as equal to THE Ahlul Bayt of those times or at least the next best person after Ghawthe A3azam.

just to clarify, talking about the entitled peerzada types.

i believe in respecting and honoring Sayyids as long as they adhere to Sunni 3aqaid and honor the Shari3ah.
 
It's not because he was/is 'Hujjat ul Islam' but because according to Shah Sahib Pir Naseer had repented from his non-sunni beliefs before he passed away. I don't see how that hurt the 'cause' and because Pir Naseer passed away soon after this meeting with Shah Sahib, the ulema thought it best to move on.

If the current custodians of Golra Sharif have the same non-Sunni beliefs and claim that they are just following Pir Naseer, then they need to openly refute Syed Irfan Shah's stance, and vice versa.

However, I don't see how Syed Irfan's stance hurts the cause because he did not give credence to Pir Sahib's non-Sunni beliefs but rather announced that Pir Sahib had repented. This then made it futile for the Tafdhlis to quote Pir sahib.

Overall, we should think favourably of those who passed away because they are not here to clarify their positions.
 
Just to clarify, I don't want brothers to think I am in favour of Shah Sahib. I vehemently oppose their:
1. Role in getting Dr Jalali sahib arrested (As one of senior Qaid's of Markazi Jammat e Ahle Sunnat, which appealed for the arrest of Jalali Sahib).
2. Using the pretext of a hadith (most will argue that it was out of context too) to dish out filthy swears at Jalali sahib and his parents
3. Instigating a fatwa of kufr on Jalali Sahib (We know the writer of the fatwa did not act of his own accord) that most Mashaykh present did not sign.

Certainly, their credibility as an uncompromising defender of the Sunni creed is now severely been brought into question. Where previously, the swearing was tolerated, it certainly won't be now.

By no means it is a point of no return for Shah sahib in terms of their aqida but the nature of their association with people like Syed Munawwar Jammati is going to be decisive. I have not given up on them and who knows they might even set the likes of Syed Munawwar Jammati straight.
 
I have not given up on them and who knows they might even set the likes of Syed Munawwar Jammati straight.
aameen.

---
just saying that while this aberration has had serious implications for ahlus sunnah in pakistan/UK, irfan shah sahib has not contradicted any major point of aqidah and hence we still consider him a sunni who has some aberrations.

Allah ta'ala knows best.
 
---
just saying that while this aberration has had serious implications for ahlus sunnah in pakistan/UK, irfan shah sahib has not contradicted any major point of aqidah and hence we still consider him a sunni who has some aberrations.

Allah ta'ala knows best.
how come sidi when he is hobnobbing with tafzili and minhaji people, it is not just this aberration in mas'alah khata, but his mingling with ahl al bida'h as well.
 
how come sidi when he is hobnobbing with tafzili and minhaji people,
he is not a reliable sunni scholar who can be followed. his actions do not behoove a sunni aalim.
however, so long as he does not contradict sunni principles, he will remain a sunni.

unless of course, al-iyadhu billah, he comes out openly in support of tafzilis or minhaji aqidah.

nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
how come sidi when he is hobnobbing with tafzili and minhaji people, it is not just this aberration in mas'alah khata, but his mingling with ahl al bida'h as well.
Mingling with ahl al-bidah, if that's what he's done, is forbidden; but doesn't take him out of ahl al-Sunnah.

We've said this for others before too. They aren't to be followed if they hobnob with deviants but don't become deviants themselves just for hobnobbing.

Which deviants has Sayyid Mash'hadi mingled with?
 
aberration has had serious implications for ahlus sunnah in pakistan/UK, irfan shah sahib has not contradicted any major point of aqidah and hence we still consider him a sunni who has some aberrations.

It's those implications that people like Noori and I are concerned with.

While yes, it can be said he has aberrations despite being Sunni, he has muddied the waters on a key aqidah for a bunch of people with his theory of 'istilahi masoom is lughwi mahfooz which is also istilahi mahfooz'. This will certainly open the doors for jahil awam to step into shiaism.

And screaming Ala Hazrat's name or chanting slogans of 'maslake Ala Hazrat' or reciting Ala Hazrat's naats or salam won't be able to protect that awam that doesn't dive into Ala Hazrat's discourses. Ala Hazrat's name, naats and salam have already been hijacked by tafdilis and minhajis, much like claims to the title of 'Ahlus Sunnah' is generously made by wahabis or how devbandis claim to be the representatives of Desi Hanafis to nondesis.

Wallahul musta3an.
 
Brothers could I draw your attention to this video. It seems to put different clips together but a couple of points are raised:
1. Syed Irfan Shah seems to be boasting about his (or possibly the people of Punjab) dictionary of swears
2. According to Jalali sahib's student, Shah Sahib has incorrectly attributed a text (Kitab ul Siqaat) to Imam Jawzi. After Shah sahib lays down the challenge about the veracity of his interview. He also mentioned the name of Abu'l Ayna as one of the narrators that supports the claim that Sayida Fatima did not request the garden of fadak. Does this narrator exist.
@abu Hasan, could you verify the veracity of these claims

 
Brothers could I draw your attention to this video. It seems to put different clips together but a couple of points are raised:
1. Syed Irfan Shah seems to be boasting about his (or possibly the people of Punjab) dictionary of swears
2. According to Jalali sahib's student, Shah Sahib has incorrectly attributed a text (Kitab ul Siqaat) to Imam Jawzi. After Shah sahib lays down the challenge about the veracity of his interview. He also mentioned the name of Abu'l Ayna as one of the narrators that supports the claim that Sayida Fatima did not request the garden of fadak. Does this narrator exist.
@abu Hasan, could you verify the veracity of these claims

Seems like shah saabs now standing in the very shoes of the matrook raawi he's mentioned.
 
could you verify the veracity of these claims
while shah sahib is wrong, the other mawlana (jalali sahib's student) chiding him for silly reasons is a tit-for-tat; because shah sahib tried to belittle him even though jalali sahib himself and other punjabi ulama routinely mispronounce names. i take a lenient view of this. so nabras instead of nibras is a talking point because of shah sahib's bravado, which would be ignored otherwise.

fair enough.

---------

shah sahib's citation is terrible.

kitab al-thiqat: there are more than one, but the most famous is that of ibn Hibban. and yes, ibn al-jawzi did not write kitab al-thiqat. [that i know of].

the quote abu'l aynaa that he said: "i and jahiz used to forge hadith like that of fadak..." is attributed to abu abdullah hakim who mentioned in al-mad'khal. ibn al-jawzi cited it in his "mawDu'at".

see vol.1/p.41

mawduat ibn jawzi v1p41.png

one can object how can we accept a liar's claim that he lied in that specific issue. apparently, abu'l aynaa acknowledged this after he repented from his previous ways of lying.
 
so what does this mean?

is irfan shah saying that sayyidah fatimah never asked for fadak, nor her request was declined?

is this what the claim is?
 
so what does this mean?

is irfan shah saying that sayyidah fatimah never asked for fadak, nor her request was declined?

is this what the claim is?
I would guess so because Saeed Asad sahib also said something similar in Sayyid Mash'hadi's presence recently.
 
is irfan shah saying that sayyidah fatimah never asked for fadak, nor her request was declined?

yes, that's what i gathered from the interview (see my post # 92). i saw the interview only once.

if this is not what irfan shah said explicitly or implicitly in the interview, someone correct me please.


great response by Jalali's student.

irfan shah's hubris and takabbur on his supposedly high levels of knowledge and status is nauseating and disgusting. he thinks he's the Khaatam Al-Muhaqqiqeen Ibn Abidin of this age or what? i'm starting to get the feel that irfan shah considers himself as mahfooz from all sorts of khata's

the Jalali student is right, irfan shah ki pol khul gayi, regarding his ilmi status and activities in the uk. and irfan shah has shown himself to be a thug by such bullying tactics and threats of cussing from morning to evening, with all those "Islamic" cheerleaders sitting around him.

utterly disgusting.

feel bad for muzaffar shah in a way. considering the abrasive desi culture of in laws, he will be/is forced to be embarrassed for irfan shah's idiotic gambits. (like how trump's cabinet find it so hard to defend his idiocies)

fair enough.

these kind of mistakes can be let to slide from the likes of common people like us. but when shameless people say the exact same word "khata" for Ummahaatul Mumineen and senior Sahaba and then throw a hissy fit only because their shia buddies feel threatened (not in defense of Sayyidah, people loyal to Sayyidah can't stay away from humility), then yes, it is necessary to pick on 'nabras' (irfan) and 'musannif ibn abi shaybah' (hanif qureshi)... actually even balab and sapray. someone should call the home office before irfan shah heads to the uk, and ask them to seize his british passport and deport him if he can't pass a GCSE in english!
 
Back
Top