UP elections and tauqir raza
- Thread starter AbdalQadir
- Start date
Even if you see it in that context and you don't support the original pre-partition, his statement is dangerous. How would he expect to conquer Pakistan (even ignoring Pakistan's nuclear capability) without shedding countless number of Muslim (Mainly Barelwi) blood on both sides?
What would the purpose to be? To realign Hindustan to the pre-partition borders but whose rule? Yep, Hindus, who are accelerating towards apartheid and fascist level of nationalism. Yes a valid argument about foregoing nationalism has value but not in this climate. It will actually increase the level of nationalism.
If the aim is to get Muslim rule in Hindustan, then that does not seem realistic at the moment.
As Malcolm X said if he had a choice between Republicans or Democrats, he would go for Republicans because at least their enmity is clear.
IbnAsif
sunniport user
ok if you say so.
IslamIsTheTruth
sunniport user
Red herring was directed at you.
I've never heard of this Tauqir guy.
There are many who attribute themselves to Bareili sharif, but actions speak louder than words.
IslamIsTheTruth
sunniport user
sunnimuslim
sunniport user
Indian muslims have to pay the heavy price for betraying indian occupied Kashmir and not moving to Pakistan during partition. They will be massacred by Rss Facist goons. Thanks to Quaid e azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah Sahib. He foresaw the fate of muslims in India under a hindu rule. Thank Allah Taal we have Pakistan today.
abu Hasan
Administrator
regardless of how pakistanis eulogise him, jinnah was a secular figure. pakistani muslims who have no idea of real history and geography have a romantic concept of how pakistan was created.
their phenomenally ignorant minds have a simplistic image of the partition: that it was a stay or leave proposition, and the smart ones left for pakistan and fools who didn't believe jinnah's foresight stayed back and (in undertone: see how it turned out?)
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take a look at this map:
pakistan was originally east and west pakistan. and after the indo-pak war in 1971, east-pakistan became today's bangladesh.
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look at this map from 1909:
5-10 percent of population, even back then would be in millions.
the above image is to give you an idea that muslims were living everywhere in india.
to cite figures, in the first census after independence which was conducted in india and pakistan (separately), these were the figures:
number of muslims in both east and west pakistan: 75.7 million
number of muslims in west pakistan (today's pakistan): 33.7 million and in east pakistan (today's bangladesh) 42 million.
and the number of 'foolish' muslims who 'chose' to stay back in india were: 35.4 million
see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Pakistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Census_of_India
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if you look at the above map, it is clear that muslims of today's pakistan stayed where they were (a majority) and those their descendants chide for not 'moving' to pakistan were not only a minority in places where they lived (hence would not have a SOUTH pakistan for example) nor was it logistically possible for them to 'migrate' to what became pakistan.
those who migrated, the 'muhajirs' didn't have a swell time either in the 'islamic' republic of pakistan, but that is separate argument.
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the question these genuises who laud the foresight of jinnah should be asked is: what was the plan for the nearly 35 million muslims spread all over india?
now chaudhury rahmat ali's original map of pakistan was like this:
this was much more practical - because muslims could 'move' to muslim-majority provinces all over the country without a contiguous land for the hindus, muslims would evnetually grow organically and keep them in check.
here is another map at the time of partition:
this is a map that shows the radcliffe line:
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indian muslims ARE paying the price for the 'freedom' enjoyed by muslims in pakistan and bangladesh.
if one could put that in a similar simplistic sentence:
today's pakistan and bangladesh were created by sacrificing the muslims who stayed back in india. it was a bargain. those in muslim-majority provinces created a homeland for themselves and left the minorities to fend for themselves.
it is therefore maulanas and ulama from punjab talk of the Divine Interference and how pakistan was created by the blessings of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam etc. as if RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam was concerned only about the muslims in the punjab-sindh-balochistan provinces and did not care for those who lived in other places (al-iyadhu billah).
and to this day, indian muslims stand alone. no one really supports us - and even though it may sound odd coming from me, it is only imran khan who has raised this issue about indian muslims. in the past, pakistanis spoke ONLY of kashmir (mostly because of the partitioned land and is contiguous with pakistani territory).
the big maulanas and the pir-zadahs and the fiery speakers who talk of khwaja or nizamuddin or even alahazrat, willfully ignore the fact that if some muslims had not stayed back in india (they had no other choice) - these maqams and graveyards and madaris would be obliterated.
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i agree that there is no point wailing over mistakes done 75 years ago - these are issues which we didn't have control, nor our forefathers, nor did muslims of that time could foresee this.
at the expense of indian muslims. don't you forget that. you can brag about this because the ship sailed leaving those who couldn't go.
have you ever thought what would have happened if there was no partition?
hypothetically, ignoring all other factors and going by sheer numbers, we would be: about 566 million compared to 982 million hindus (966m indian + 4m pakistan +12m bangladesh). that would be about 1:2.
but hindus are counted as one demographic mostly to counter muslims - because hindus are actually divided into classes (varnas) and they certainly have no unity, with such a heavy counter-balance of muslims, we could ally with those, whom 'caste' hindus deem as lower castes (dalits) and thus become equal to those who identify as 'caste hindus'.
there can be many 'what-if's. but the truth is that indian muslims stand alone, much like the kingdom of gondor bearing the brunt for its proximity with mordor.
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nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
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i don't get it with our pakistani brothers behaving like these big full grown babies with 70 yr old uncles chanting 'you should have all moved to pakistan with us'. let me present you an alternative, and in my opinion, better, viewpoint
pakistani Muslims have to pay the heavy price for betraying ALL of Hindustani Muslims including Kashmir, and dividing the Muslim population and power into three. (Hindustani is a reference to the unified subcontinent under Muslim power) it is because our brothers deserted us that these rss fascist goons are trying to overpower us; notwithstanding the loss of life and property that they endured themselves. all thanks to Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his gunah-e-jariyah of splitting Muslim unity and power. he was myopic and short-sighted at best who couldn't foresee that it is a logistical impossibility for mass migration of an entire demographic to take place. at worst, he was only interested in carving out his own niche in power. we thank Allah in all circumstances.
some innocent questions/comments to our Pakistani brethren:
what stops you folks from launching a full scale offensive against india and liberating Kashmir? enough of talks and slogans, take some action.
assuming you do get Kashmir (Kashmir banega Pakistan), will you guys be able to retain it? you don't have a very cute track record with Bangladesh aka East Pakistan
as far as deen is concerned, what makes the Kashmiri brethren any more special than the Rohingya brethren? or the Uiyghurs? or the rest of Indian Muslims? why is Pakistan so cozying up with china? have you guys not received the memo on the Uiyghurs?
coming to the issue of deeni brotherhood again - i would think our propaganda fed pakistani brothers would feel some haya (at a collective and political level, nothing personal against you or IbnAsif) after the Bangladesh episode
finally, as for safety of life and property, once again - check the body counts of our dear Muslim brothers killed by their own dear Muslim brothers in Pakistan vs Muslims killed by rss and indian army terrorists in india. the figures might shock you.
coming back to Kashmir - why are our Pakistani brethren against Kashmiris wanting an independent state and want it to join Pakistan? even those Kashmiris who want an independent state of their own are not looked at very kindly by their Pakistani brothers.
when someone talks some honest stuff like this, the standard response is that we are hindu admirers or propaganda-fed nationalist indians and deen and ghayrat-e-imani and ummah and brotherhood take a back seat in our lives. talk about irony.
it's great you posted some points i missed. Pakistan really is punjabistan to be honest. as you said the bulk majority are those who didn't have to 'move'. of those that did move, what are the conservative numbers on the loss of Muslim lives and property in punjab, and the amount of Muslim women raped and butchered by the sikh barbarians? 3-5 lacs? whose account does all that get billed to - us fools who stayed back or mr. Jinnah who was the root cause of all this?
oh yeah, apparently Jinnah was a Sunni Muslim wali (a convert from ismailism to 12'er shiaism or Sunniism, apparently no one's sure), who knew everything about Muslim identity, siyasah, and power. he missed just one line from the fiqh books of any of the 4 mazhabs, that it is HARAM for the Sultan to declare jihad (offensive) if he has reason to believe that on ground Muslims will suffer greater losses to life and property had they not fought in the first place. then what do we say about initiating something like this that led to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Muslims? maybe he just believed that the partition would be this thing like an Eid party with everyone (Muslim or kafir) calmly giving up their ancestral homes and livelihoods, walk out of their lands, catch the trains built by the british and move to the other side. how hard could it be and the british being the excellent administrators they are, would facilitate all this with exceptional efficiency.
incidentally, for many punjabis, punjabi culture is a greater binding force than deen, and a lot of the young Pakistani punjabis from today don't know or remember what happened in the partition time and are all best friends with sikhs and hindu punjabis (just see it in uk)
sunnimuslim
sunniport user
Brother you can say what you want. But Pakistan IS a reality. What will happen to you Indian muslims is a nightmare. Forget Hitler from now on
Pakistan will forced to have a limited war or full scale war because of situation of indian muslims sooner or later. But till than you have to suffer.
coming back to Tauqir Raza saab and Salman Raza Saab (son in law of Asjad Raza saab), why is the former wrong (or sulah kulli) for allying with congress and the latter not so for visiting yogi? the excuse of 'we're doing it for Muslims & Sunnis' will be equally valid or invalid for either of them.
if someone brings in Fatawa Ridawiyya and Ala Hazrat's direct disavowal from the congress, then i ask are we living in that pre-independence british india? Ala Hazrat not just disavowed from congress, but rather all mushrikeen.
i too hate the congress and have said it multiple times that any "mudda" that the bjp has finished or acted on was actually started by the congress, them being the leftovers of the sly british politics of divide and rule.
of course Ala Hazrat spoke against gandhi and if i'm not mistaken mentioned sardar patel too by name in his fatawa. not too sure about nehru.
yes Ala Hazrat spoke against allying with the mushrikeen for the sake of this pseudo-azadi that we're all experiencing now and warned in clear language that there's no way mushrikeen can bear well for Islam or Muslims, and point blank refuted this infatuation of some Muslims with liberal hindus who are supposedly bhai-bhai with Muslims, and said that they too are enemies of Islam and Muslims (not counting the open haters). devbandis allege him to be a british agent, all out of their hasad for him, because of course, personal point scoring and nationalism with hindus ranks higher on their priority list than loyalty to deen.
people browbeat us with jinnah's supposed far sightedness, but it's a real shame no one sees Ala Hazrat's far sightedness on the perils of an independent Hindustan, (the whole subcontinent). it is none other than the average Muslim of the subcontinent who is left to clean up the mess caused by the hindu-allied "Muslim reformers" as well as the opportunist Jinnah
anyway, in the here and now, we don't have any answers, just questions on the mechanics of how Muslims can get involved in politics to minimize the damage cause by the hindus (bjp or congress or anyone else)
if someone brings in Fatawa Ridawiyya and Ala Hazrat's direct disavowal from the congress, then i ask are we living in that pre-independence british india? Ala Hazrat not just disavowed from congress, but rather all mushrikeen.
i too hate the congress and have said it multiple times that any "mudda" that the bjp has finished or acted on was actually started by the congress, them being the leftovers of the sly british politics of divide and rule.
of course Ala Hazrat spoke against gandhi and if i'm not mistaken mentioned sardar patel too by name in his fatawa. not too sure about nehru.
yes Ala Hazrat spoke against allying with the mushrikeen for the sake of this pseudo-azadi that we're all experiencing now and warned in clear language that there's no way mushrikeen can bear well for Islam or Muslims, and point blank refuted this infatuation of some Muslims with liberal hindus who are supposedly bhai-bhai with Muslims, and said that they too are enemies of Islam and Muslims (not counting the open haters). devbandis allege him to be a british agent, all out of their hasad for him, because of course, personal point scoring and nationalism with hindus ranks higher on their priority list than loyalty to deen.
people browbeat us with jinnah's supposed far sightedness, but it's a real shame no one sees Ala Hazrat's far sightedness on the perils of an independent Hindustan, (the whole subcontinent). it is none other than the average Muslim of the subcontinent who is left to clean up the mess caused by the hindu-allied "Muslim reformers" as well as the opportunist Jinnah
anyway, in the here and now, we don't have any answers, just questions on the mechanics of how Muslims can get involved in politics to minimize the damage cause by the hindus (bjp or congress or anyone else)
abu Hasan
Administrator
everything alahazrat said came true.
sunnimuslim
sunniport user
Brother no one is objecting or disagreeing with Alahazrats (r) foresight and vision. Good news is coming for Indian muslims despite of a difficulties.
Brother, can you summarize this person's video in like one or two sentences in your own words?
sunnimuslim
sunniport user
Brother Orya Maqbool Sahib says that Pakistan-India war is predicted and not inevitable because of the situation in indian occupied kashmir and generally situation of muslims in India. Pakistan can not remain silent or neutral for a long time. It is obligatory (fardh) on Pakistan to help muslims in India and save them from Rss facist government.
Thanks brother. We'll wait for your support.
Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
translation?