Asad Ali on Hamza Yusuf
- Thread starter Mubashar Luqman
- Start date
Meh- who cares what randoms on twitter have to say. Note they have not addressed the actual issue at hand:
Is Nasr a perennialist?
Is perennialism kufr?
Is Zayd a kaafir for refusing to consider perenialists as kuffar?
I would suggest they answer these questions as opposed to committing the following logical fallacies:
Ad hominem attacks (i.e. what do you know, you're a guy online, khariji, etc)
Appeal to accomplishments (as if Hamza's achievements somehow protect him from being questioned regarding the above)
Strawman (as if we ever claimed a birth right privilege to Islam. Someone born a Muslim would receive the same treatment... I mean, look at how we treat Nasr himself)
Considering how big their cult leader, Hamza, is on studying the trivium, it's surprising how little these online commentators are able to grasp logic.
And for the avoidance of any doubt- there is nothing 'soft' about my takfeer of hamza. Mawlana Abu Hassan saab can speak for himself.
Is Nasr a perennialist?
Is perennialism kufr?
Is Zayd a kaafir for refusing to consider perenialists as kuffar?
I would suggest they answer these questions as opposed to committing the following logical fallacies:
Ad hominem attacks (i.e. what do you know, you're a guy online, khariji, etc)
Appeal to accomplishments (as if Hamza's achievements somehow protect him from being questioned regarding the above)
Strawman (as if we ever claimed a birth right privilege to Islam. Someone born a Muslim would receive the same treatment... I mean, look at how we treat Nasr himself)
Considering how big their cult leader, Hamza, is on studying the trivium, it's surprising how little these online commentators are able to grasp logic.
And for the avoidance of any doubt- there is nothing 'soft' about my takfeer of hamza. Mawlana Abu Hassan saab can speak for himself.
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Shadman
sunniport user
If we are going to approach it academically, we should also ask "What is perennialism?" too as a ground. Afterwards, we can successively ask the other valids questions you proposed.
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It's just imbeciles with star studded eyes who measure knowledge and scholarship by popularity ratings. That's how the group of dajjal works.
Call out any celebrity for anything, you can give a mountain of reasons and daleels, and yet, their only retort would be, 'but it's hamza Yusuf' or 'but it's habib ali jifry'
they're like donkeys carrying books on their backs. Allah guides whom He Wills. That's all.
Fair enough- terms should always be defined.
Perhaps we could just replace perennialism with 'believing in the validity of all religions/believing that previous dispensations are still valid or have not been abrogated' in order to prevent any quibbling over terms. No doubt these guys would have issue with the term perennialism despite the fact that Hamza uses it and equates it with the definition as I've provided (see video I linked earlier).
Juwayni
sunniport user
Here is the issue: those who are subscribed to the "traditionalist school" (a.k.a. Perennialism) formed by Rene Guenon and Rama Coomaraswamy have a set of assumptions about truth and reality that do not agree with Islam. One of their main issues is the fact that they see many pre-Islamic religions (as well as Islam) as all having an esoteric (hidden, obscure) core that is the same. As a result, they view the religions themselves as being external forms that allow a person to access that core at a "level of transcendence".
The issue with that is the fact it assumes each religion's metaphysics is the same. This is false.
- Hinduism is a pantheistic religion in which they believe Brahma is the universe and the universe is Brahma. In Islam we believe the universe has signs that indicate to Allah's Names and Attributes but that the universe does not have an independent, necessary, and self-subsisting existence, but rather, is entirely dependent on Allah Willing it to exist and bringing it into existence at every moment.
- Christians believe that God is a substance with three persons each with attributes that are interdependent and one of whom can incarnate into creation. Muslims believe that it is rationally impossible for such an incarnation to happen and that it is rationally impossible for there to be a division of Allah and that it is rationally impossible that He (ʿAzza wa Jall) be specified into persons or be a "substance".
- There are certain fundamental disputes that cannot be said to "reconcile at the level of transcendence" like beliefs regarding the crucifixion. Muslims believe Sayyidunā ʿIsā (ʿAlayhis Salām) was neither crucified nor killed; Christians, however, believe the opposite.
- Some Jews believe that our Master (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came to the Arabs only, we believe he (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came as a Messenger to the entire universe.
- Muslims believe that all other religions are abrogated and only Islam (in the technical usage: the religion that our Master (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came with) is acceptable to follow.
- Furthermore, Perennialists cannot account for mutually exclusive claims between groups who both claim to follow the same religion:
- Some "ʿIrfanī" 12er shias today believe the universe is pre-eternal and perpetually created; Muslims believe it had a definite beginning that came after non-existence.
- Qadiyanis reject the Khatm an-Nabuwwah/attempt to reinterpret it to mean solely the perfection of Nabuwwah but not the cession of sending of new Prophets. Muslims believe no new Prophets will be sent.
- "Liberal Muslims" openly reject the prohibition on homosexual acts and also reject the obligation of ḥijāb, Muslims believe the former is definitively prohibited and the latter is definitively established as an obligation.
- Aghākhānis believe that only their Imam has the authority to "reinterpret" the Qur'ān by accessing its "bāṭin" meanings for each era, thereby believing he can "reinterpret" an obligation like ṣalah to mean a group "duʿā" in their jamatkhana. Muslims believe that the core obligations are the core obligations and someone new will not come to fundamentally change the nature of said obligations.
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Unbeknown
sunniport user
or unfortunate dupes manifesting symptoms of sunk cost fallacy - they have already invested emotional capital too heavily in the charismatic silver-tongued conjurer of a cult-leader who has them drooling over his drawling reminiscences of an Arabian Nights style adventures in the deserts of Mauritania.
Poor fellas took him for sindbad and are unable to come to terms with the reality that their hero is a mere yankee in the conartistry line. Credulous wide-eyed babes in the Jungle.
