Sectarianism Event and Criticism

[Mehmet Sekil]

 

[Khanah]

Watch from 2:47:00 onwards.

During the actual panel discussion, sh.asrar called out hamza yusuf quite a few times.

Asad Ali spoke about him to a degree from 2:47 onwards although I found it kind of unsatisfactory. In any case, any of those fanboys on the Internet who criticised asad ali's critics- asad Ali himself says we cannot endorse hamza's attitude towards perennialsm etc. Should have been much harsher though and still don't accept that you can call him a great scholar.

 

[AbdalQadir]

Watch from 2:47:00 onwards.

During the actual panel discussion, sh.asrar called out hamza yusuf quite a few times.

Asad Ali spoke about him to a degree from 2:47 onwards although I found it kind of unsatisfactory. In any case, any of those fanboys on the Internet who criticised asad ali's critics- asad Ali himself says we cannot endorse hamza's attitude towards perennialsm etc. Should have been much harsher though and still don't accept that you can call him a great scholar.

i saw from 2:47:00 until 2:57:00

agree with your stance. not satisfactory enough, and even Asrar Rashid's criticism wasn't harsh enough in the 10 minutes that i saw, although like you alluded, harsher than Asad's. there's a lot of dirt on mark hanson that if a proper mufti who knows english, and can dig through his garbage in academia, he will see and rule mark hanson for the filthy kafir and dajjal, and enemy of Allah and Islam that he actually is. we're certainly not like the ahbash who'll jump the gun on one aberration in fiqh or deliberately casually misjudge any comment and call people kafir, but traitors to the ummah and enemies of Islam like mark hanson and abdullah bin bayyah and ali jifry have to be called for what they are.

mark has a set pattern and doesn't change like Asrar Rashid said clearly, and in this said pattern he's supported kufr and kuffar and perennialist nonsense point blank many many times. but yes, like ibn taymiyah (and ibn taymiyah is a much lesser evil than mark hanson) mark hanson has a propensity to fly like a sparrow here and there, and he (mark) hides behind half truths and misrepresentations. for example, in his ganesh video, he cites verses and ahadith with his own spin. this is something he has developed an expertise in - state verses, ahadith, classical scholars comments and then give the exact opposite of the message. Asrar mentioned separately not talking about mark regarding speaking the truth in order to lie. mark is an expert in that. so some effort is needed to collect all his kufriyat together and analyze them all at the same time and place, and people can see what a terrible murtad mark hanson is as are many others like him.

Asad sounds better in real life than his tweets i agree, but that eid tree thing still bothers me (aside of mark hanson issues), and i stand by my comment. if you have a secret, keep it safe till the time is right to divulge it; don't throw out teasers in public sphere; it's not cool, it's childish.

 

[Shadman]

I think it's better to watch the whole lecture. The shaykhs talked about HY earlier in the lecture too. The last ten minutes doesn't do justice since it was already late and they were wrapping up the session. The entirety of the lecture(podcast) is on the principles of dealing with sectarianism.

 

[abu Hasan]

even Asrar Rashid's criticism wasn't harsh enough in the 10 minutes that i saw

sh. asrar rashid either has not seriously examined perennialism, schuon-nasr-hamza OR he has not understood the danger of this heresy. instead of seizing the opportunity to clarify the matter, he has drawn a cloud on his own stand and ability to warn sunnis about this.

tum na paOge saadah dil mujh sa
jo taghaful ko bhi hayaa jaaney

---

The shaykhs talked about HY earlier in the lecture too.

i will watch the whole lecture, in sha'Allah, but the 10m clip needs a rough-cut release.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

[AbdalQadir]

sh. asrar rashid either has not seriously examined perennialism, schuon-nasr-hamza OR he has not understood the danger of this heresy.

i think being busy with other pursuits could be an explanation. this devil (hanson) is like a movie star and has a new video every second week if not day. he has no shame and haya so lying and misleading is second nature to him. but for people who value decency and integrity and wish to follow the due course of law that the Shariah stipulates, it will certainly take them longer. you have to watch all his movies to understand his agenda and that certainly requires spending a lot of time on observing his shenanigans. the old churchill quote that by the time falsehood hops half way across the globe, truth barely gets its pants on!

another thing i've noticed is - with the advent of youtube and superior online technologies, mark (and any right or wrong public figure) is more involved in videos rather than writing (as was the case from 1993 till 2008 on the net, and the good old days of forums and geocities). even with forums, this is one of the few online forums still surviving. most wahabi devbandi and barelvi forums of this type have died out. dunno if shiachat is active too. there's reddit and quora and those types, but at least to me, they don't cut it like good old fashioned vbulletin or xenforo. i always prefer the written word to videos but this is not very common. so anyways, with videos it's a lot easier to play duck and dive and give any number of explanations and counter explanations for any position. look at the politicians on tv or youtube or "scholars" like irfan shah and so on. with the written word, a person has more chances to be caught out.

 

[abu Hasan]

one of the reasons i stick to this medium is because it is in a discussion format. allows me to work on multiple threads, and allows me to cite, quote and dissect videos etc. you can search, and get historical perspectives.

people will realise the value of this in time. in sha'Allah.

 

[abu Hasan]

around 2:45:00 shaykh asrar says that they (i assume he means, he and his team) are undertaking an arabic translation of BeS.

good luck to them, but i wish they don't attempt a translation per se as i have seen this in some translations of alahazrat's work, where the urdu translation of hadith was translated back into arabic, instead of simply citing the hadith (which wsa already in arabic) with not very impressive results.

the translators of BeS have to pick up the original arabic and compile them (sadrush shariah has highlighted the source through-out and much of it is a translation from durr).

just my opinion. feel free to ignore.

 

[abu Hasan]

at 2:46:35 you can see asad ali sitting in the masjid as if he were loitering in an airport lounge waiting for a connecting flight.

i can understand that the panelists have been sitting for more than 2 hours and a little bit of a stretch and he could be tired or that he might have some physical discomfort, but we don't remember ulama sitting like this. but whether it is coincidental or a subconscious reflex, he sits up the moment he begins to talk about hamza or perhaps he wants to clear his name.

this is not a big issue, but i felt this totally out of place. the adab of majlis is one shouldn't stretch their legs unless it is due to a need.

----
at 2:47:00

okay people need to understand how to read.

[shah sahib: can you please repeat the question so people can..]

okay so. on the.. on..so i got into a back and forth with an individual on twitter and mentioned shaykh hamza yusuf being... i said i respect him as a scholar. but the thing is people again take one part of a tweet and don't read the other parts and of course, there's this going to be issues.

whats been mentioned about the individual...shaykh hamza yusuf...thats been mentioned i wanna make this very clear now, everybody can open their ears now and put it on all of the forums that you want. ok?

whats been mentioned..ok..is clear. we are clear with that.

we...anybody who supports perennialism...and i actually make this very clear the day after..ok..you saw that..anybody who supports, endorses perennialism is a person who we cannot take from. thats what we made very very clear.

when i was speaking about shaykh hamza yusuf i said: i respect him as a scholar in his own right. thats what i mentioned. if you read the tweet properly. and just prior to that i said: we agreed to disagree on many things. ok? so i will talk about the meeting in a while.

#1: do we... can we... just as al-imam ahmad rida khan rahmatullahi alayh wa radiya anhu wa ardaah said about ibnu taymiyyah for example. he said: that his scholarship he respected, but he disagreed with him and he called him out.

i say for me and my level...what i am..ok..i respect shaykh hamza for his scholarship. but i don't agree with many of his points. is there anything wrong with saying that? [asad ali turns towards the panelists and sh. asrar doesn't agree obviously; someone else asks: can you qualify...]
​

and then shaykh asrar speaks up giving asad ali a free pass. we will come to that later and we will see why shaykh asrar should not be hanging around youngsters who are not scholars yet. this is what asad ali has said. [someone help me by transliterating the until the 2:57:00 time]

 

[abu Hasan]

okay people need to understand how to read.

let us read asad's tweets:

 

[abu Hasan]

in the sectarianism meeting, he simply reiterated his support for perennialism by praising hamza and just like hamza, he simply rejected the charge of perennialism. that is doublespeak hamza is master of.

of course, you can detect the scorn for forums, and i am sure he was talking about ours "put it on all the forums you like..." so we will oblige him. he has to do tawbah and has the ghayrat to call perennialism as kufr and stop promoting HY.

---

 

[Ibrahim]

Sayyid Samdani also made remarks about something like he is sitting in the mosque and people can see his face but he can't say that for others.

 

[Hanafi Sunni]

the translators of BeS have to pick up the original arabic and compile them

Mufti abul hasan(former teacher at Jamia Amjadiya, ghosi) has compiled all the Ahadith (arabic with urdu) of bahare shariat, citing them back to their orignal source with hadith/page numbers. Compilation is called Amjadul Ahadith.

(just felt to mention this, hope it benefits those who arent aware of this/ or want to use the arabic hadith when citing bahaar). Book can be purchased in the UK
https://islam786books.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3902

 

[Sharani]

Sayyid Samdani also made remarks about something like he is sitting in the mosque and people can see his face but he can't say that for others.

Can you explain this please?

 

[Waqar786]

Sayyid Samdani also made remarks about something like he is sitting in the mosque and people can see his face but he can't say that for others.

I did not know that 'showing one's face' is a prerequisite to judging one's aqeeda. It is just a diversion tactic to avert one's attention away from the real issues.
What Sh Asad Ali fails to comprehend or chooses to ignore is that by saying HY is a 'great scholar' in his own right but we do not endorse perennialism on social media, he is exposing the public to the equivocation in HY's speeches. How well versed are the public to the issues of perennialism? If for argument sakes, we say even the common Muslim will find perennialism unacceptable, then how can you say that HY is a 'great scholar', when he can't give a straight answer to what is known to the common Muslim.

HY with his links to the like of Nasr and co should not be promoted, in fact they should be cancelled until the repent. they can pontificate their garbled half-truths on lecterns under the guise of 'academia' but should be shunned from scholarly circles . Faith is not equivocation, it is firm belief.

 

[Surati]

whats been mentioned about the individual...shaykh hamza yusuf...thats been mentioned i wanna make this very clear now, everybody can open their ears now and put it on all of the forums that you want. ok?

What a whole lot of waffling and looking towards Sh Asrar for reassurance. Evidently, speaking live isn’t as easy as concocting ig stories.

That last bit comes across as exceedingly arrogant even though I suppose Asad Ali thought that was terribly clever.

Tut, tut — fame clearly isn't everything.

 

[burdah reciters]

I have spent time with the said individuals numerous times. I am a nobody but can confidently say the fame is getting to them and its all about the likes and followers. When they were told I don't follow them on social media - it was as though I had committed a grave sin — fame clearly isn't everything.

 

[Aqdas]

Apart from the anonymous aH who we can't take from because no one knows who he is(!), who else has or will come out and say this:

Hamza supports perennialism. Ergo, Hamza promotes kufr. Hence, it is forbidden to take from him.

I'm going to kiss the hand of the first UK based scholar who does it.

We've got a lot of certificate holding, Arabic speaking young grads these days. Let's see...

And if they don't, then I'll keep following anonymous people because at least they aren't scared of upsetting people and worried about appeasement.

Why can't we have a molwi in the UK who just says things clearly?

Like aH said, Hamza, who I don't consider Muslim, can merrily promote Dante in which our master ﷺ is insulted but we can't tell Muslims to not follow the shaytan, Hamza? Nah.

I'm not waiting for UK molwis. I prefer people who say it as it is.

 

[Aqdas]

Hanson the shaytan is attempting to make perennialism popular amongst Sunnis and the most our ulama are saying is:

Agree to disagree
Refute the bidah

Nah. Not enough. Humiliate the shaytan. Stop messing about. If you can't speak the truth, then let those who can do it. Stop attacking forums when you can't even call a spade a spade. Forums are doing more than you've ever done to refute heresy.

 

[Hanafi Sunni]

huzur tajush shariah short clip that i feel people need to listen to.
in light of the qur'aan only sunnis are on the right path.