Egregious Mistake on Suhur Issue - Citing Hadith of Abu Dawud
abu Hasan
Administrator
according to the claim, citing the hadith: "do not put down the vessel/plate until you have fulfilled your need"
the speaker below and the picture suggests that: do not panic if the adhaan starts. by hadith, you are allowed to eat/drink if you are in the middle of it and complete your eating/drinking regardless of the adhaan.
the speaker also ostentatiously points out the difference: you cannot start when the adhan is underway; however, if you are in the middle of eating/drinking and adhaan starts, don't put down until you are done with.
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la Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.
this is wrong - and following this advice will nullify the fast.
besides both the pic and the video have inserted words not in the hadith which cannot be justified. in other words, the hadith or "mafhum" or translation of their hadith is itself wrong - the implication and the conclusion even more so.
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we will do analysis presently, but this assertion defies common sense.
if we are to take the hadith literally, there are four important clauses here:
1. you were already eating
2. adhaan was called out
3. plate/vessel was in your hand
4. don't put it down until you have fulfilled your need
suppose the end-time of suhur and start time of fajr is 4.47 AM and shuruq (end time of salat al-fajr is 6.07 AM).
going by idiotic opinion of ignoramii (plural of ignoramus), one can fill up the plate by 4.43 AM and start eating and not put down the plate until 6 AM.
if you say that it is not right, you will have to provide the justification and then specify the acceptable limits and evidence for those specifications:
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wa billahi't tawfiq.
the speaker below and the picture suggests that: do not panic if the adhaan starts. by hadith, you are allowed to eat/drink if you are in the middle of it and complete your eating/drinking regardless of the adhaan.
the speaker also ostentatiously points out the difference: you cannot start when the adhan is underway; however, if you are in the middle of eating/drinking and adhaan starts, don't put down until you are done with.
----
la Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.
this is wrong - and following this advice will nullify the fast.
besides both the pic and the video have inserted words not in the hadith which cannot be justified. in other words, the hadith or "mafhum" or translation of their hadith is itself wrong - the implication and the conclusion even more so.
=========================
we will do analysis presently, but this assertion defies common sense.
if we are to take the hadith literally, there are four important clauses here:
1. you were already eating
2. adhaan was called out
3. plate/vessel was in your hand
4. don't put it down until you have fulfilled your need
suppose the end-time of suhur and start time of fajr is 4.47 AM and shuruq (end time of salat al-fajr is 6.07 AM).
going by idiotic opinion of ignoramii (plural of ignoramus), one can fill up the plate by 4.43 AM and start eating and not put down the plate until 6 AM.
if you say that it is not right, you will have to provide the justification and then specify the acceptable limits and evidence for those specifications:
- how much is allowed? two mouthfuls or three? 200ml water or 350ml? three chicken drumsticks or five?
- how long is it allowed? because reading the above hadith literally, we do not find any specification for an end time. "do not put it down until your need is fulfilled" is open ended.
if you say: until the adhaan ends, or three to five minutes or whatever - you will have to provide proof for your assertion. on what basis?
- how long is it allowed? because reading the above hadith literally, we do not find any specification for an end time. "do not put it down until your need is fulfilled" is open ended.
if you say: until the adhaan ends, or three to five minutes or whatever - you will have to provide proof for your assertion. on what basis?
------
wa billahi't tawfiq.
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abu Hasan
Administrator
let us first check the hadith, 2350 in abu dawud:
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the first mistake by the juhala is inserting: 'adhaan of fajr' in the hadith wording without any justification. indeed, we insert words in translation to clarify but it has to be justified. one cannot simply insert anything arbitrarily.
the speaker in the video repeatedly asserts that it is "the correct time of fajr," whereas such an indication is not found in the hadith nor can it be understood by the context, nor has any hadith master explained it thus.
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let us consult the commentaries: imam abu sulayman al-khattabi (bio here), one of the earliest commentators of hadith works in his ma'alim al-sunan writes:
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jalaluddin suyuti, in mirqat al-su'uud sh. abu dawud, p.601:
in addition to citing khattabi (translated above) imam suyuti adds:
we understand from the above that it was specific to the time of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and he knew about the prevalent practice.
in fat'h al-wadud sh. abu dawud of allamah muhammad sindi (al-kabir, d.1138 AH). 4/36
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in the video attached, the man has badhl al-majhud of khalil ambhetvi, notorious deobandi-wahabi in the shelf behind him. alas! he could have referred to it at least before opening his ignorant mouth. khalil also explains the hadith as his predecessors:
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topic: when a man hears the call (adhaan/nidaa) and the vessel/plate is in his hand.
RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "when one of you hears the call (nidaa) and the vessel/plate is in his had, let him not put it down until he has fulfilled his need from it".
RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "when one of you hears the call (nidaa) and the vessel/plate is in his had, let him not put it down until he has fulfilled his need from it".
------------------
the first mistake by the juhala is inserting: 'adhaan of fajr' in the hadith wording without any justification. indeed, we insert words in translation to clarify but it has to be justified. one cannot simply insert anything arbitrarily.
the speaker in the video repeatedly asserts that it is "the correct time of fajr," whereas such an indication is not found in the hadith nor can it be understood by the context, nor has any hadith master explained it thus.
-----
let us consult the commentaries: imam abu sulayman al-khattabi (bio here), one of the earliest commentators of hadith works in his ma'alim al-sunan writes:
i say: this is based (on the other hadith): "indeed bilal's adhaan (call for prayer) is in the night; eat and drink until (you hear) the adhaan of ibn umm maktoum."
or it means: if one hears the adhaan, but he is not sure that it was dawn break - for example, when the sky is cloudy and one would not know by just the adhaan that it was dawn, because the evidence for dawn is not present (due to darkness) - and if it was apparent to the mu'adhin (the caller) it would be apparent to the person as well (because they are both looking at the same sky).
and if he knows that the dawn has broken, then it is not necessary for him to wait for a loud aadhan (to intimate him that suhur time has ended) - because he is commanded to withhold from eating and drinking when the "white thread of dawn is distinct from the black thread". [khattabi]
or it means: if one hears the adhaan, but he is not sure that it was dawn break - for example, when the sky is cloudy and one would not know by just the adhaan that it was dawn, because the evidence for dawn is not present (due to darkness) - and if it was apparent to the mu'adhin (the caller) it would be apparent to the person as well (because they are both looking at the same sky).
and if he knows that the dawn has broken, then it is not necessary for him to wait for a loud aadhan (to intimate him that suhur time has ended) - because he is commanded to withhold from eating and drinking when the "white thread of dawn is distinct from the black thread". [khattabi]
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jalaluddin suyuti, in mirqat al-su'uud sh. abu dawud, p.601:
in addition to citing khattabi (translated above) imam suyuti adds:
bayhaqi said: if the hadith is sahih, then it is to explained as the majority of scholars have opined that: RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam knew that the caller would call before the break of dawn, and thus if one continues drinking, it would be well before the break of dawn.
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we understand from the above that it was specific to the time of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and he knew about the prevalent practice.
in fat'h al-wadud sh. abu dawud of allamah muhammad sindi (al-kabir, d.1138 AH). 4/36
there is a slight variant of bayhaqi's statement which clearer than the previous:
bayhaqi said: if this is proven (or if this is a sahih hadith) - the majority (jumhur) explain it that RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said so when the caller (munadi) would call before the break of dawn (tuluu al-fajr) such that one's drinking would be BEFORE the break of dawn.
i say: if you deliberate on this hadith and also the other: "eat and drink until bin umm maktoum's adhaan is called out" - because he would not call the adhaan until the break of dawn (tuluu al-fajr).
so also is the apparent meaning of the qur'ani verse - Allah ta'ala says: "until distinct for you is the white thread of the dawn from the black thread (of the night)". surah baqarah, v187.
this means that the basis (of ending suhur time) is the clear visibility of dawn - this is a short while after the start of the dawn - and the caller (mu'addhin) while waiting for the (correct time of) fajr may accidentally begin at the time of early dawn and it is permissible to drink (or eat) until the actual break of dawn. however, this is a well known difference of opinion among scholars and according to them, there is no reliance on this (hadith). Allah knows best.
bayhaqi said: if this is proven (or if this is a sahih hadith) - the majority (jumhur) explain it that RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said so when the caller (munadi) would call before the break of dawn (tuluu al-fajr) such that one's drinking would be BEFORE the break of dawn.
i say: if you deliberate on this hadith and also the other: "eat and drink until bin umm maktoum's adhaan is called out" - because he would not call the adhaan until the break of dawn (tuluu al-fajr).
so also is the apparent meaning of the qur'ani verse - Allah ta'ala says: "until distinct for you is the white thread of the dawn from the black thread (of the night)". surah baqarah, v187.
this means that the basis (of ending suhur time) is the clear visibility of dawn - this is a short while after the start of the dawn - and the caller (mu'addhin) while waiting for the (correct time of) fajr may accidentally begin at the time of early dawn and it is permissible to drink (or eat) until the actual break of dawn. however, this is a well known difference of opinion among scholars and according to them, there is no reliance on this (hadith). Allah knows best.
====
in the video attached, the man has badhl al-majhud of khalil ambhetvi, notorious deobandi-wahabi in the shelf behind him. alas! he could have referred to it at least before opening his ignorant mouth. khalil also explains the hadith as his predecessors:
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abu Hasan
Administrator
sahur - the food we eat during suhur
suhur - the period during which we eat sahur or the act of eating the sahur
in nihayah of ibn al-athir v2 p348:
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similarly wuDu is the action and waDu is the water with which one does wuDu.
radd al-muhtar, 6/342:
suhur - the period during which we eat sahur or the act of eating the sahur
in nihayah of ibn al-athir v2 p348:
sahur with fat'hah is the thing - food or drink - that which one eats during suhur (pre-dawn meal with the intention to fast).
and with Dammah, it is the root-word (maSdar) or the action (the act of eating sahur).
usually in hadith, it is narrated with fat'Hah; it is also said that the correct way is with Dammah because with fat'Hah it refers to food
because barakah / blessing and reward is in the ACT of eating that - not in the food per se.
and with Dammah, it is the root-word (maSdar) or the action (the act of eating sahur).
usually in hadith, it is narrated with fat'Hah; it is also said that the correct way is with Dammah because with fat'Hah it refers to food
because barakah / blessing and reward is in the ACT of eating that - not in the food per se.
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similarly wuDu is the action and waDu is the water with which one does wuDu.
radd al-muhtar, 6/342:
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abu Hasan
Administrator
bahar shariat, v5, p983
[the urdu text "both cases" refers to 'swallowing': a) after remembering b) at dawn break. literal translation may cause confusion - so i have split the sentence to convey the intent of the author].
a) if one was eating forgetfully and he spat out the food immediately when he remembered (that he was fasting) his fast remains valid. if he swallows, AFTER remembering, the fast is invalid.
or
b) one was eating prior to break of dawn (the true dawn /subah sadiq) and at the time it was break of dawn, if he swallowed anything in his mouth (at that time); however, if he spat out anything in his mouth at the time of dawn, his fast will be valid.
or
b) one was eating prior to break of dawn (the true dawn /subah sadiq) and at the time it was break of dawn, if he swallowed anything in his mouth (at that time); however, if he spat out anything in his mouth at the time of dawn, his fast will be valid.
[the urdu text "both cases" refers to 'swallowing': a) after remembering b) at dawn break. literal translation may cause confusion - so i have split the sentence to convey the intent of the author].
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Abdullah91
sunniport user
So the Hadith is referring to the first azan which is prior to Dawn? Is this the basis of the imsak time on our timetables in the UK?