Islam and homosexuality
- Thread starter Aqdas
- Start date
Hamza100
New Member
It's mandatory in schools now. Not allowed to pull your children out. What is possible solutions
Shaykh Asrar says kids should exercise their freedom of speech and ask the teacher: please also tell us about STDs caused by homosexual practice.
Masjids should run courses for parents and children on how to answer about LGBT.
Hamza100
New Member
Agree
However, I fear that in the future, if a child was to do this, they'll involve social services and groups like Prevent will label such behaviour as "radical."
There's apparently cases in Sweden in which social services have taken Muslim children away from their parents and adopted by non Muslim parents to "assimilate" them
Are there any books by Muslim authors discussing the immorality of homosexuality, similar to 'Correct, Not Politically Correct' by Frank Turek and 'Making Gay Okay' by Robert Reilly?
The aforementioned books mainly talk about homosexual marriage, yet they remain worthwhile reads nonetheless
The aforementioned books mainly talk about homosexual marriage, yet they remain worthwhile reads nonetheless
AbdalQadir
time to move along! will check pm's.
First thing is to gather a group of legal professionals - look for at least 50 Muslim lawyers, counsels, paralegals etc.
They may or may not be practicing but should have some care for deen and be willing to devote some time and efforts for the community.
Then form a lobbying group involving these lawyers as well as a sizable number of well educated and well informed (duniya-wise) concerned Muslim citizens. Precondition - must be able to speak English at native uk level.
Don't involve open murtads like ismailis and qadianis who have blanket fatwas of kufr on them, but involve other people like some well intentioned wahabi and devbandi or tafzili citizens who care for such societal issues. If any desi Sunni molvi accuses you of sulah kulliyat, let him harp on. This is a matter of a basic tenet that all agree upon. Also involve people from other communities. Turks, Arabs, Africans etc. Address it as a generic uk Muslim issue that it is, not a desi one or Sunni one.
The first thing that must be done is a constitution and code of conduct must be drafted to run this nonprofit lobbying group; and it must have provisions to keep clowns like malm or modernists out of it.
DONT INVOLVE ANY NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING PEERS OR MOLVIS IN IT - regardless of maslak. They will only screw things up before they even take off. Guaranteed! Try it if you don't believe me.
It can be funded by donations and chanda and it should be enshrined in its constitution that all donations and financial statements of this nonprofit will be subject to an independent audit and the audit reports must be publicly available.
You can involve politicians too if you have any sincere ones in uk and not your typical Sadiq khan or those qadiani MP's.
That's just a start. The gays did this in the 80s. You're not gonna get anywhere without lobbying.
They may or may not be practicing but should have some care for deen and be willing to devote some time and efforts for the community.
Then form a lobbying group involving these lawyers as well as a sizable number of well educated and well informed (duniya-wise) concerned Muslim citizens. Precondition - must be able to speak English at native uk level.
Don't involve open murtads like ismailis and qadianis who have blanket fatwas of kufr on them, but involve other people like some well intentioned wahabi and devbandi or tafzili citizens who care for such societal issues. If any desi Sunni molvi accuses you of sulah kulliyat, let him harp on. This is a matter of a basic tenet that all agree upon. Also involve people from other communities. Turks, Arabs, Africans etc. Address it as a generic uk Muslim issue that it is, not a desi one or Sunni one.
The first thing that must be done is a constitution and code of conduct must be drafted to run this nonprofit lobbying group; and it must have provisions to keep clowns like malm or modernists out of it.
DONT INVOLVE ANY NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING PEERS OR MOLVIS IN IT - regardless of maslak. They will only screw things up before they even take off. Guaranteed! Try it if you don't believe me.
It can be funded by donations and chanda and it should be enshrined in its constitution that all donations and financial statements of this nonprofit will be subject to an independent audit and the audit reports must be publicly available.
You can involve politicians too if you have any sincere ones in uk and not your typical Sadiq khan or those qadiani MP's.
That's just a start. The gays did this in the 80s. You're not gonna get anywhere without lobbying.
I have been thinking along the lines of finding orthodox Jews and conservative Christians and working with them against the LGBT agenda and gender ideologues.
In the US and the UK, more and more people are waking up and realising the danger kids are in. So we should work with them.
In the US and the UK, more and more people are waking up and realising the danger kids are in. So we should work with them.
Using the approach of the LGBT movement to ensure rights and protections will not work in a country like the UK nor will creating a lobby group for Muslims.
The LGBT movement and the rights that resulted from it are argued for within the paradigm of liberalism. The reason this works is that they can argue behind the harm principle and societies such as the UK are built upon the idea of ensuring maximum freedoms so long as others are not harmed or at least not harmed significantly unless consent is taken. Remember in the beginning, there became increasingly less opposition from the masses because 'love is love' and 'what harm is there to anyone else if two men or two women love each other and enter into a marriage commitment'. This cannot really be argued against from within paradigm on a micro level.
This principle is however being severely contested at the moment to explore its limits and in particular in the arena of Gender Critical belief. Search for the SEEN network which has grown massively in recent times and is actively campaigning on these issues. The reason they can do so effectively and not Muslims generally is that they too argue from within paradigm. Notably in the areas of compelled speech, and unrestricted right of born non females to enter female spaces e.g. toilets, changing facilities. Those savvy enough can work out why this will be the destruction of liberalism as there is now objective way to decide this point, hint, the courts and legislature are by their essence not objective arbiters.
As much as I might disagree with their views, popular youtubers like MH, Daniel Haqiqatjou have led the way with this kind of argumentation and it is proving somewhat successful due the sizeable Conservative Christian numbers in the UK and in particular the US.
Lobbying groups only work well with masses of wealth and even then they must operate within paradigm. Vegans, Jews etc all use the harm principle at the core of their arguments.
Large weath does exist in UK Muslim communities but by and large the affluent ones do not want to significantly part with that wealth. Evidence for this is the severe absence of high quality Islamic Faith schools which would be the ideal arenas to test these principles and instrust a generation of righteous callers to Islam.
Some of us in the public sector work within the paradigm and pitch a ride selectively on the backs of other groups who we judge as having more success. Right now, GC adherents are leading the charge but of course, we do not adhere to many of the views of the SEEN network and the likes. It's fraught with danger as open support creates reciprocity expectations, 'you scratch my back and ill scratch yours'.
I'd suggest the following,
Rapidly work to building Islamic Faith based schools which are highly performing across curriculum and in particular STEM. The deobandi groups are far ahead in this regard and we must seriously consider working on agreeing some agreed charter of co-operation for working with those we disagree with. This will require Imams leading by example and working in their local communities to speak directly with the Muslims who are wealthy, powerful and influential.
Recruit talented public personalities to spread our narrative in the mainstream. Ideally, these should be people with huge fan bases such as football stars or other celebrities.
Adopt Shaykh Asrar rashid's view that Muslim children should be actively challenging the paradigm from within. To do this, masajid should incorporate philosophy discussions into their curriculum and provide robust instructions, from what I have seen, the arguments are outdated and already easily refuted.
My preferred option, build Muslim communities in the UK places where everyone including Non Muslims aspire to live and work. Make them the safest, the wealthiest, the most honorable, the cleanest, the most stable, the most charitable, and you will soon see significant ground level changes attitudes to Islam. As the imam or our local mosque once said to the jamaah prior khutbah, you have more chance of meeting an honest use car seller who is kaafir than a muslim in this area and sadly this has also been my experience where i live. Clever arguments and money will not change the hearts of people if they do not see the affects of Islam in us.
Failing the above, those less able financially and intellectually requiring development, should seriously consider moving back to Pakistan or a muslim majority country where Islam is still dominant. Pakistan at least for now is still leagues ahead of the UK in that regard. Go find some nice small village and town in Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia for example and live your life with less worry for your own imaan and that of your family.
For the rest of us who don't have that option or want to stay, we have real work to do.
The LGBT movement and the rights that resulted from it are argued for within the paradigm of liberalism. The reason this works is that they can argue behind the harm principle and societies such as the UK are built upon the idea of ensuring maximum freedoms so long as others are not harmed or at least not harmed significantly unless consent is taken. Remember in the beginning, there became increasingly less opposition from the masses because 'love is love' and 'what harm is there to anyone else if two men or two women love each other and enter into a marriage commitment'. This cannot really be argued against from within paradigm on a micro level.
This principle is however being severely contested at the moment to explore its limits and in particular in the arena of Gender Critical belief. Search for the SEEN network which has grown massively in recent times and is actively campaigning on these issues. The reason they can do so effectively and not Muslims generally is that they too argue from within paradigm. Notably in the areas of compelled speech, and unrestricted right of born non females to enter female spaces e.g. toilets, changing facilities. Those savvy enough can work out why this will be the destruction of liberalism as there is now objective way to decide this point, hint, the courts and legislature are by their essence not objective arbiters.
As much as I might disagree with their views, popular youtubers like MH, Daniel Haqiqatjou have led the way with this kind of argumentation and it is proving somewhat successful due the sizeable Conservative Christian numbers in the UK and in particular the US.
Lobbying groups only work well with masses of wealth and even then they must operate within paradigm. Vegans, Jews etc all use the harm principle at the core of their arguments.
Large weath does exist in UK Muslim communities but by and large the affluent ones do not want to significantly part with that wealth. Evidence for this is the severe absence of high quality Islamic Faith schools which would be the ideal arenas to test these principles and instrust a generation of righteous callers to Islam.
Some of us in the public sector work within the paradigm and pitch a ride selectively on the backs of other groups who we judge as having more success. Right now, GC adherents are leading the charge but of course, we do not adhere to many of the views of the SEEN network and the likes. It's fraught with danger as open support creates reciprocity expectations, 'you scratch my back and ill scratch yours'.
I'd suggest the following,
Rapidly work to building Islamic Faith based schools which are highly performing across curriculum and in particular STEM. The deobandi groups are far ahead in this regard and we must seriously consider working on agreeing some agreed charter of co-operation for working with those we disagree with. This will require Imams leading by example and working in their local communities to speak directly with the Muslims who are wealthy, powerful and influential.
Recruit talented public personalities to spread our narrative in the mainstream. Ideally, these should be people with huge fan bases such as football stars or other celebrities.
Adopt Shaykh Asrar rashid's view that Muslim children should be actively challenging the paradigm from within. To do this, masajid should incorporate philosophy discussions into their curriculum and provide robust instructions, from what I have seen, the arguments are outdated and already easily refuted.
My preferred option, build Muslim communities in the UK places where everyone including Non Muslims aspire to live and work. Make them the safest, the wealthiest, the most honorable, the cleanest, the most stable, the most charitable, and you will soon see significant ground level changes attitudes to Islam. As the imam or our local mosque once said to the jamaah prior khutbah, you have more chance of meeting an honest use car seller who is kaafir than a muslim in this area and sadly this has also been my experience where i live. Clever arguments and money will not change the hearts of people if they do not see the affects of Islam in us.
Failing the above, those less able financially and intellectually requiring development, should seriously consider moving back to Pakistan or a muslim majority country where Islam is still dominant. Pakistan at least for now is still leagues ahead of the UK in that regard. Go find some nice small village and town in Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia for example and live your life with less worry for your own imaan and that of your family.
For the rest of us who don't have that option or want to stay, we have real work to do.
AbdalQadir
time to move along! will check pm's.
ironically, that is the very class that will find it the hardest to move to a Muslim nation. people from this demographic will not easily find a decent job in the oil rich gulf, nor will they know how to navigate a move back to Muslim nations. for their caliber, they have much better and affluent lives that they are used to, and they won't find the same comforts back home if they do those same jobs there - be it driving taxis, or operating a small ma 'n pa shawarma joint, or something of that sort. being a cab driver in london is not as lucrative as being a taxi driver in karachi or lahore or cairo. that only applies to first gen immigrants
plus another issue with this class is that if the first gen haven't focused on deeni education of their kids, their kids once passed through the public school and university system (ages 17 and older), tend to see their parents and their home countries as more inferior in any aspect, religious, financial, cultural, duniya, etc., they even have arguments from maghreb-nawaz speakers that they can and will be better Muslims here than back home, and will simply not budge into moving back, especially marriage aged kids 18 and above; adding to it that they dread the thought of marrying someone from back home!
all this - with the assumption that those first gen immigrants (fobs/imports) even know what's going on around them and are aware of this discussion we're having about the dangers to the youf (not you and me personally on Sunniport, but people like us talking about it in mosques, whatsapp groups, masjid groups, even universities, with other level-headed sensible conservative westerners etc)
legal professionals and the smart ones among us will argue against it too within the paradigm of liberalism. we don't have to accept liberalism wholeheartedly for it. we can form a focused group that focuses only on this issue, pushing for our rights to uphold what we believe, and show them the evidence for it from their own liberal philosophy
i think you and i are on roughly the same page with that where you mentioned MH, DH etc.;
and other approaches like Muslim schools - once again with Muslim schools, it's not just about finding the money and setting one up, but ensuring it's as free as the public schools. a lot of people from the lesser affluent classes simply can't afford Muslim schools for their kids, and if three or four kids in a family, forget about it, even super conservative upper middle class parents think twice about Muslim schools
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LGBT is probably the least of problems for average Muslims in the UK, there are far greater issues that have become widespread and ingrained and it is only getting worse.
The reason I say this is that one can easily observe among young Muslims in the UK raised in traditional communities the word "gay" is considered an insult and is far from any kind of mass acceptance. Muslims in the UK have held onto the cultural stigma regarding this which the British formerly held, a simple look at the words they use with regard to someone they perceive to be "gay" is identical to what the average Briton would use in the 1980s/1990s.
In fact the current reaction to LGBT itself among Muslims seems to be a result of it being culturally unacceptable, whereas Muslim children brought up in the West have been exposed to a society with many evils, the worst of them being kufr of its many shades in the forms of atheism/agnosticism, secularism, liberalism, modernism, feminism etc which is prevalent everywhere, including in schools and colleges, yet there is little reaction or care for such exposure and indoctrination.
I feel it is sufficient to mention the Islamic prohibition relating to these matters and the how there is no room for difference of opinion as such things are qatyi, along with the fundamental aspect, which is often completely ignored and left out when dealing with modern issues, that the morality of the Muslim is based upon the Shari'ah, and that whatever the Shari'ah declared as evil is evil, and whatever the Shari'ah declared as good is good, that as Muslims we believe in all that RasulAllah ﷺ came with, that we make him ﷺ the ultimate created authority on any matter, and we submit to his verdict wholeheartedly, this is faith and this is Islam, and this is an important part of Islamic creed which I feel is not stressed enough in our times.
Yes, we can also mention wisdoms behind particular laws of the Shari'ah, however the fundamental principle of submission, acceptance, and deference should always be there, "we hear and we obey", it is this which must be inculcated in children from a young age, and it is the lack of this which leads people to reject parts of the Shari'ah or the totality of it.
In the course of apologetics and da'wah it seems many have forgotten what Islam actually is; submission unto Allah and His Rasul ﷺ in all matters, even if it contradicts modern norms, even if society today sees what they have declared evil as good or sees what they have declared good as evil.
If this is firmly rooted in the hearts of children from a young age, one could mention any hukm of Shari'ah to them and they would accept it without any hesitation or doubt, and it is this which is the ultimate goal and perfect state of belief.
The reason I say this is that one can easily observe among young Muslims in the UK raised in traditional communities the word "gay" is considered an insult and is far from any kind of mass acceptance. Muslims in the UK have held onto the cultural stigma regarding this which the British formerly held, a simple look at the words they use with regard to someone they perceive to be "gay" is identical to what the average Briton would use in the 1980s/1990s.
In fact the current reaction to LGBT itself among Muslims seems to be a result of it being culturally unacceptable, whereas Muslim children brought up in the West have been exposed to a society with many evils, the worst of them being kufr of its many shades in the forms of atheism/agnosticism, secularism, liberalism, modernism, feminism etc which is prevalent everywhere, including in schools and colleges, yet there is little reaction or care for such exposure and indoctrination.
I feel it is sufficient to mention the Islamic prohibition relating to these matters and the how there is no room for difference of opinion as such things are qatyi, along with the fundamental aspect, which is often completely ignored and left out when dealing with modern issues, that the morality of the Muslim is based upon the Shari'ah, and that whatever the Shari'ah declared as evil is evil, and whatever the Shari'ah declared as good is good, that as Muslims we believe in all that RasulAllah ﷺ came with, that we make him ﷺ the ultimate created authority on any matter, and we submit to his verdict wholeheartedly, this is faith and this is Islam, and this is an important part of Islamic creed which I feel is not stressed enough in our times.
Yes, we can also mention wisdoms behind particular laws of the Shari'ah, however the fundamental principle of submission, acceptance, and deference should always be there, "we hear and we obey", it is this which must be inculcated in children from a young age, and it is the lack of this which leads people to reject parts of the Shari'ah or the totality of it.
In the course of apologetics and da'wah it seems many have forgotten what Islam actually is; submission unto Allah and His Rasul ﷺ in all matters, even if it contradicts modern norms, even if society today sees what they have declared evil as good or sees what they have declared good as evil.
If this is firmly rooted in the hearts of children from a young age, one could mention any hukm of Shari'ah to them and they would accept it without any hesitation or doubt, and it is this which is the ultimate goal and perfect state of belief.
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Yes. But now, we also have to explain the wisdoms or possible wisdoms behind the rulings.
I mentioned this, however this alone is moot and insufficient without the fundamental aspect of submission and taking the Shari'ah as our moral compass, and this is something which even many vocally anti-LGBT Muslims fail to do on other issues. We need a holistic approach which protects against any doubt and objection, no matter what it may be.
Once we establish logically that Allah exists and is One, and that RasulAllah ﷺ is a true Prophet and Messenger of Allah, then it follows that we must believe all that he came with, without any doubt.
If a person has a strong foundation in basic Sunni aqidah and kalam then any modern issue can be easily dealt with and they can easily dismiss it, even those which have become ingrained in society, including among Muslims.
I didn't say it ought to be dismissed completely, I said the Islamic prohibition ought to be explained.
However, where is the same reaction and zeal against those things which definitely are a threat to the vast majority of Muslim youth in the West, where such things are found everywhere they look.
Zina is a bigger threat to the average young Muslim man or Muslim woman in the West, and that has been openly celebrated and promoted for decades, yet how much do Muslims warn and educate their children with regard to zina?
How much do Muslim parents work to help their children avoid zina? Do they arrange marriages for them at an early age so that they can be protected against it? Do they educate them with regard to the laws of hijab/pardah, so that they are saved from falling into it?
Zina is far more widespread among Muslim youth today than ever before, yet there is no similar opposition and reaction to this.
Children are desensitised to zina and receive constant exposure to haram relationships via movies, TV shows, music, friends, etc. Yet people don't seem to have an issue with their children consuming and absorbing all of that.
I simply feel that our priorities are misplaced, and whilst it is important to speak about LGBT, we also must know that there other evils which truly are threatening the Muslim youth at a far greater level.
We have reached a situation today where the average young Muslim has had at least one haram relationship prior to marriage, where it is not uncommon for young Muslims to shamelessly engage in PDA, and it is a growing phenomenon that images and videos of them engaging in zina and other such acts are leaked, shared online, and sometimes even sold.
The scholars have said: "he who does not know the people of his time is a jahil"