abu Hasan
Administrator
are you a follower/student/mureed of sh. asrar?
Yasir Qadhi and Asrar Rashid - Aqida
- Thread starter Mehmet Sekil
- Start date
Forget whether he is outside of sunni Islam- I consider him to be outside of Islam, full stop. Here he is denying that belief in eternal hellfire is part of the necessities of the religion, which every 5 year old can even tell you:
https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/ibn-taymiyyah-on-hellfire.15211/
Here he claims the one who believes the sunnah has not been preserved is not a kaafir:
https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/yq-on-hadith-rejectors.15394/
Whereas belief that the sunnah hasn't been preserved is also a rejection of the necessary elements of the religion.
I'm sure shaykh asrar doesn't sit on YouTube watching YQ lectures all day so he would be unaware of this and probably believes YQ is a taymiyyan type of wahabbi which has become more popular these days (those who reject ibn Abdul Wahhab but have the aqeedah of ibn taymiyyah overall and may even follow a madhab, such as Muhammad Hijab who is a hanbali muqallid or bro hajji who claims to be a hanafi muqallid).
Whether shaykh asrar should have joined this podcast, I don't know, but he clearly called out albani, ibn uthaymeen, and the likes and didn't accept the sulh kullism proposed by YQ but it's also true that he didn't call out YQ specifically apart from the general 'we have differences which we can talk about in the future'.
https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/ibn-taymiyyah-on-hellfire.15211/
Here he claims the one who believes the sunnah has not been preserved is not a kaafir:
https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/yq-on-hadith-rejectors.15394/
Whereas belief that the sunnah hasn't been preserved is also a rejection of the necessary elements of the religion.
I'm sure shaykh asrar doesn't sit on YouTube watching YQ lectures all day so he would be unaware of this and probably believes YQ is a taymiyyan type of wahabbi which has become more popular these days (those who reject ibn Abdul Wahhab but have the aqeedah of ibn taymiyyah overall and may even follow a madhab, such as Muhammad Hijab who is a hanbali muqallid or bro hajji who claims to be a hanafi muqallid).
Whether shaykh asrar should have joined this podcast, I don't know, but he clearly called out albani, ibn uthaymeen, and the likes and didn't accept the sulh kullism proposed by YQ but it's also true that he didn't call out YQ specifically apart from the general 'we have differences which we can talk about in the future'.
Ah the transformation of YQ, the salafi poster boy back in the day, the best of Madinah education and best of western education. Hope he takes up that offer to visit Shaykh Asrar in Birmingham. I know Shaykh has also met with the Bro Hajji fella and Hijab recently and let's see if he meets with Haqiqatjou too. Shaykh is going his own way, regularly appearing alongside HT too.
There can't be unity with wahabis, devbandis, shiah, et al. Because the differences are in the daruriyyat.
So as we've done since the beginning, everyone should do their own thing. Have your own "masjids", madrasahs, events, etc. No mixing.
Saeed Asad sahib wanted unity with devs. But what did that look like:
1. Devs stop calling us mushrik
2. Devs stop calling us bidyis
3. Devs abandon the passages of dev4.
But then that's a Sunni! So unity is only achievable if deviants become Sunni.
We just have to carry on as we have been. Learn to live side by side, without any violence. We keep out of each others' way and if there's ever an issue that affects us all and we have to share a platform, that can be accommodated.
Apart from that, unity isn't possible, by definition.
So as we've done since the beginning, everyone should do their own thing. Have your own "masjids", madrasahs, events, etc. No mixing.
Saeed Asad sahib wanted unity with devs. But what did that look like:
1. Devs stop calling us mushrik
2. Devs stop calling us bidyis
3. Devs abandon the passages of dev4.
But then that's a Sunni! So unity is only achievable if deviants become Sunni.
We just have to carry on as we have been. Learn to live side by side, without any violence. We keep out of each others' way and if there's ever an issue that affects us all and we have to share a platform, that can be accommodated.
Apart from that, unity isn't possible, by definition.
We don't need unity with wahabis.
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The UK is plagued with sulh kullism. Even supposedly learned people have stopped caring about who they associate with. Molwis happily share stages with Tahir ul, Minhajis, tafdilis, closet shiah. Awaam merrily promote devs and sulh kullis on SM. Sellouts still go to Irfan Shah.
Where's the true Sunni identity gone? If it wasn't for Barelwis in the UK, I think the serious matter of dissociation from deviants would have been fully sidelined by now.
The UK needs a cleanup. Where's the leadership to do that?
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The UK is plagued with sulh kullism. Even supposedly learned people have stopped caring about who they associate with. Molwis happily share stages with Tahir ul, Minhajis, tafdilis, closet shiah. Awaam merrily promote devs and sulh kullis on SM. Sellouts still go to Irfan Shah.
Where's the true Sunni identity gone? If it wasn't for Barelwis in the UK, I think the serious matter of dissociation from deviants would have been fully sidelined by now.
The UK needs a cleanup. Where's the leadership to do that?
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Shaykh Asrar expanding out the 'Barelvi' circle and being a representative for them by going on podcasts like these, going on 5 pillars, talking to Muhammad Hijab etc... is providing so much benefit to Barelvis but sadly people don't realise.
I actually don't disagree with expanding our circle in principle as yes, the true barelwi scholarship is definitely on haq but their influence is usually limited to those who were born barelwi. Which is basically 0 influence since most born barelwis have no real appetite for learning even the basics of the religion. Because our reputation amongst even the non barelwi sunni public is often that of people dancing around graves, going on the more widely watched podcasts and such isn't the worst idea to show our true face and combat broader issues at the same time.
The biggest hurdle to this is who else is on these podcasts though. No point being on there with YQ when in reality, you have to refute his fitna and kufr. And when you do your duty in this regard, often times you won't be invited onto these podcasts in the first place. So whilst it's a nice sentiment to widen the circle, I don't see how it can be done without selling out to a degree yourself.
Best to knuckle down, teach as wide an array of people as possible, write your books and translations, do your lectures and the expansion of the circle will occur by producing an educated barelwi public and scholarship who can produce their own high quality content that people will trust and engage with.
The biggest hurdle to this is who else is on these podcasts though. No point being on there with YQ when in reality, you have to refute his fitna and kufr. And when you do your duty in this regard, often times you won't be invited onto these podcasts in the first place. So whilst it's a nice sentiment to widen the circle, I don't see how it can be done without selling out to a degree yourself.
Best to knuckle down, teach as wide an array of people as possible, write your books and translations, do your lectures and the expansion of the circle will occur by producing an educated barelwi public and scholarship who can produce their own high quality content that people will trust and engage with.
Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
I agree with you to a very limited extent.
Perhaps, it would be helpful if you could please enlighten us, by enumerating in a list format, these various benefits that you refer to.
جزاك الله خيرا
And surely this is why Shaykh Asrar did it. But he can do the same without Yasir being there. Just Dr Shadee and Shaykh Asrar should be fine.
When Barelwis see Shaykh Asrar accomodating Yasir, what's the perception they're left with? That we can have unity with his type. But we can't.
Shaykh Asrar needs to have his own monthly podcast with his own capable students and deliver the unadulterated Barelwi manhaj.
In trying to bring in the 10% he could end up confusing the 90%. Concentrate on Sunnis, the rest can see your work and come in if they want.
Right now, the 90% is being diluted. Work on that.
Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
As someone who comes from the other side and spent time with many deviant groups (Almaghreb, Madkhalis, deobandis/tablighis) to the extent that I was one of the first few students of NAK when he initially started his Arabic teaching back in 2006. (Even if you were to ask him today about me, he will remember me. And I have no problem openly condemning him even though he was one of my teachers in the past). and as someone who in the past considered the “Barelwis” as the last people I would ever associate with, I would have to majorly disagree.
it’s not necessary for the Barelwis to be “put on the map” for them to be successful and for benefit to come to them. It’s about the sincerity of those seeking the truth to weed out the wrong groups and eventually come to the haq.
If I (as deviant as I was) was able to come this far to the haq, then I don’t believe anyone really has an excuse. Ultimately guidance is from Allah anyways.
there is no need to dilute Sunniyat by associating with deviants. It actually makes us that much weaker and encourages people to go towards Batil and think Batil is okay (since so and so Sunni Scholar is doing it) as brother Aqdas has already mentioned.
There are plenty of resources available, including many in the English language (such as those written by Mawlana Abu Hasan) that clarify many of the controversial matters for those sincerely seeking the truth
Wallahu Alam
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Ashari Matuiridi
sunniport user
A side question here, is the guy Dilly Hussain from 5Pillars a sunni? He seems to agree with the points Shaykh Asrar makes in the podcasts but if anyone knows let us know.
And secondly what is up with the non wahhabi yet ibn taymiyyan hanbalis..
How can anyone even call ibn taymiyyah their favourite scholar or look up to him despite the likes of ibn Qudama Al Maqdisi being an option?
And there is nothing from the creed or even methodology of ibn taymiyyah that is even slightly appealing after knowing about Ash'arism.
Allah guides whomever He Willls...
And secondly what is up with the non wahhabi yet ibn taymiyyan hanbalis..
How can anyone even call ibn taymiyyah their favourite scholar or look up to him despite the likes of ibn Qudama Al Maqdisi being an option?
And there is nothing from the creed or even methodology of ibn taymiyyah that is even slightly appealing after knowing about Ash'arism.
Allah guides whomever He Willls...
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Just curious, how did you end up following Sunni Barelvis at the end of it all, if you were influenced by NAK from the get go?
Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
well firstly, the haq is always apparent and obvious once a person comes across it, and then it’s up that person to sincerely recognize and accept it.
(if you noticed the podcast with Shadee and Shaykh Asrar. Whenever Sh Asrar made points in refutation of wahabis and proving Sunniyat, YQ got uncomfortable and silent. It was obvious from his face that he recognized the truth but didn’t want to accept it just like the Jews know the truth but avoid it for their own desires).
Secondly, it obviously didn’t happen over night.
There were many phases I went through.
And with the advent of social media and YouTube there was the ability to access information beyond the influence of my immediate circle.
There were many questions that needed answering that I went on to explore and research their answers, such as:
-why so many different groups
-what makes my group special
etc
-and the numerous contradictions within Wahabi beliefs
-The concept of doing takfir of the ummah and considering the majority mushrik
etc
and then studying history and understanding post colonialism agendas etc
Among many other factors
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abu Hasan
Administrator
we are not running for political office. we do not have business interests - that we fear losing customers. boy, i don't even have thousands of followers to lose on social media! i am free to express my views. i do not have to varnish the truth or self-censor my views or present my views in a manner acceptable to all - so that it doesn't upset people. i am not interested in gathering followers or admirers either - so that i have to strategically conceal my true opinions.
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a man who speaks the truth will have enemies.
conversely, if you have to be friends with everyone, you will have to compromise on speaking the truth.
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so here, sh. asrar expanding HIMSELF - not the 'barelvi' circle. because he has publicly distanced himself from the label of 'barelvi'. so please don't give us this 'whatever-asrar-does-is-best-since-sliced-bread' line.
he is a spokesman for his own 'thing' - whatever it is. please don't impress the favours of sh.asrar on the barelwi public in every action.
do not take me wrong - i continue to believe that sh. asrar is a sunni aalim. but i do not agree with his methods and approach and certainly somewhere in the corner of my heart, there is a dull pain of disappointment.
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if sh. asrar dilutes his outlook - irrespective of what he believes himself - he will certainly be invited on all platforms. do you think anyone on these platforms in their right mind would ever care to invite someone who minces no words or call himself a 'barelwi'?
certainly not. and sh. asrar removed that tag long ago. he is not a barelwi - by his own admission - and should not bother about what barelwis do. sub'HanAllah, he can go to sit with hijab and other guys and promote them on his facebook as 'brothers' and 'ustaz' and etc - even though hijab appears to be an ignoramus when it comes to islamic knowledge (based on a couple of videos i saw). i saw a picture where sh. asrar is sitting so seriously, and the other two fellows are loitering on a sofa as gamers discussing a football game. a friend commented: "sunnis would sit bolt upright in his presence."
would sh. asrar be as generous with the barelwis? do you think sh. asrar would "set aside differences" and go to sit with mufti zahid to 'discuss' things of common concern?
so dear brother, my best wishes and prayers for shaykh asrar for whatever he is trying to do - i still believe that he is doing things with a good intention - though i do not agree with his modus operandi, nor do i understand what he is trying to do; but i think it may prove detrimental in the long run.
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the wahabis will love you if you don't talk about mawlid and istighatha and other things which have now come to be identifiers of sunnis in this age. wiping on mests is not fard or wajib - but imam azam mentioned it among signs of being a sunni simply because that mas'alah was contradicted by heretics of his age.
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a man who speaks the truth will have enemies.
conversely, if you have to be friends with everyone, you will have to compromise on speaking the truth.
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apologies for using this example, but this is like tahir jhangvi and his antics added in barelvi account even though he himself rejects the label of 'barelvi'.
so here, sh. asrar expanding HIMSELF - not the 'barelvi' circle. because he has publicly distanced himself from the label of 'barelvi'. so please don't give us this 'whatever-asrar-does-is-best-since-sliced-bread' line.
he is a spokesman for his own 'thing' - whatever it is. please don't impress the favours of sh.asrar on the barelwi public in every action.
do not take me wrong - i continue to believe that sh. asrar is a sunni aalim. but i do not agree with his methods and approach and certainly somewhere in the corner of my heart, there is a dull pain of disappointment.
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as a brother pointed out prior to me, can you list the 'benefits'?
if sh. asrar dilutes his outlook - irrespective of what he believes himself - he will certainly be invited on all platforms. do you think anyone on these platforms in their right mind would ever care to invite someone who minces no words or call himself a 'barelwi'?
certainly not. and sh. asrar removed that tag long ago. he is not a barelwi - by his own admission - and should not bother about what barelwis do. sub'HanAllah, he can go to sit with hijab and other guys and promote them on his facebook as 'brothers' and 'ustaz' and etc - even though hijab appears to be an ignoramus when it comes to islamic knowledge (based on a couple of videos i saw). i saw a picture where sh. asrar is sitting so seriously, and the other two fellows are loitering on a sofa as gamers discussing a football game. a friend commented: "sunnis would sit bolt upright in his presence."
would sh. asrar be as generous with the barelwis? do you think sh. asrar would "set aside differences" and go to sit with mufti zahid to 'discuss' things of common concern?
so dear brother, my best wishes and prayers for shaykh asrar for whatever he is trying to do - i still believe that he is doing things with a good intention - though i do not agree with his modus operandi, nor do i understand what he is trying to do; but i think it may prove detrimental in the long run.
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the main reason we have supported sh.asrar in the past was because he was holding classes and teaching various things - and it was different from common barelvi gatherings of naat and rhetoric laden speeches.
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the wahabis will love you if you don't talk about mawlid and istighatha and other things which have now come to be identifiers of sunnis in this age. wiping on mests is not fard or wajib - but imam azam mentioned it among signs of being a sunni simply because that mas'alah was contradicted by heretics of his age.
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Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
Based on my personal previous experiences, perhaps what he means by this benefit is that the other (deviant) sects will start to positively view the Barelwis as moderate Muslims and not extreme grave worshippers…
but who cares about what others think?
If the kuffar are millatun wahida, would the deviant groups be also considered as such in their own right?
Do we need to appease them?
reminds me of
لن ترضى عنك اليهود و لا النصارى حتى تتبع ملتهم
Or perhaps, the post 9-11 naive “dawah” of some of the liberal Muslim leaders in their interfaith gatherings:
“we’re not much different from you, so please accept us as human beings also and be friends with us”
abu Hasan
Administrator
please do not misread this - i didn't mean that sh. asrar is doing it for himself. what i meant was that these outings will only make sh.asrar more acceptable to the 'others'. not the barelwis per se. i have also said that i believe he is doing what he does with a sincere intention.
but others will be quick to point out that he is not a barelwi.
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on the contrary, barelwi youth will feel that sh. asrar is not reliable anymore as he can be seen on many platforms. OR they may begin to consider all those with whom sh. asrar appears as acceptable to listen and hear (this was pointed out by others as well).
the latter is what we fear the most - sunni scholars actively forbade listening to heretics, lest they begin to be attracted to them (i.e. heretics) and thus lose their way.
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While there is a need to enhance the perception of Barelwis within the broader Muslim community, since, admittedly, this perception isn't particularly favourable, this doesn't imply that we need approval from everyone and anyone or that should we sacrifice our principles for acceptance
One major benefit I see in having Shaykh Asrar going on these mainstream platforms is that it demonstrates to the broader Muslim community that Barelwis also have a well-informed English-speaking scholarly figure who is well-grounded in geopolitics and modern crises and can challenge them head-on in meaningful discussions and debates (he is the only one as far as know, which, of course, is a shame)
I was informed recently by a brother that Shaykh Asrar will consistently encourage YQ to commemorate the Mawlid and accept Istighathah
One major benefit I see in having Shaykh Asrar going on these mainstream platforms is that it demonstrates to the broader Muslim community that Barelwis also have a well-informed English-speaking scholarly figure who is well-grounded in geopolitics and modern crises and can challenge them head-on in meaningful discussions and debates (he is the only one as far as know, which, of course, is a shame)
I was informed recently by a brother that Shaykh Asrar will consistently encourage YQ to commemorate the Mawlid and accept Istighathah
Abdullah Ahmed
sunniport user
once again, we’re back to the same point Mawlana @abu Hasan has reiterated:
Sh Asrar doesn’t consider himself Barelwi nor is he the representative of Barelwis, so how does what you’re saying make any sense?
Hanafi Sunni
sunniport user
why are we trying to impress the broader muslim community in any case? I mean on one hand you want to represent sunnis but on the other hand spark controversies that are in unfavourable towards the sunnis (on matters such as istighatha) where we have to seek private clarifications from sh. asrar but the old videos are constantly being used by deobandis up to date which creates so much confusion among sunnis.
we need to realise that not everyone is well grounded with sunni aqeeda. Sharing platforms will just trap vulnerable sunnis, making them softer in aqeeda.
yes, just to reiterate the fact that there are benefits of shaykh being on these platforms but the longer term repercussions are more severe. I mean look at sayed irfan shah issue, association with deviants led him to RIFD and he didn't even realize the trap shaytaan got him in.
if people want to know how well grounded shaykh asrar is with modern day issues, they can simply look at his youtube channel and his publications. In my opinion its sufficient.
bro, when you have liars widespread with propaganda against barelwis, you cant do anything. I mean if there is something to be done, it is being done. Books are being published. Ulama are striving to show the truth.
This should be done publicly so that the viewers are well aware about the differences. YQ has got a whole 3 hour lecture (with arabic subtitles) where he believes its a stepping stone to shirk. Good luck convincing him on this
its not about what we see, its about what the reality is and its severe repercussions on a larger scale.