Investigating the Criticism of Asharis by Salafis

I

Ibby AH

sunniport user
As salaamu alaykum w rahmatullahi w barakatuh all

I have been researching aqeedah for some time, and unfortunately have been thrown into all the polemics, as such I feel like I need to get that out of the way before carrying on with my studies.

Why do we not take from the same early books as the salafis? Books such as the one in the PDF shared from asharis.com.

Do we say these books contain misguidance or mistakes? one point to mention is with Imam ibn Khuzaymas kitab at tawhid, narrations are in there which reflect the Bible. I have spoken to salafis who see no problem in this.

A lot of my doubts come from asharis.com, too. With the extensive refutations of public figures and mutakallimeen + claimed links of greek philosophy to kalaam, and no qur'aan and sunnah being cited in the mutakallimeen's books, I have a hard time trying to study kalam since I do not understand it well and like the simplicity of salafi aqeedah.

I have tried studying Imam Sabunis bidayah, and also the Sanusi creed, however I stopped due to getting confused + these doubts. I have also tried reading Shaykh Saeed Foudeh's Naqd al Risala at Tadmuriyyah , translated by Shaykh Abdul Aziz Suraqah. However this was a heavy read, and I found it did not go back to the salaf + qur'an and hadeeth.

Another book I have seen excerpts of is Dhamm al Kalam by Abu Ismaeel al Harawi, which contains outright takfeer of all asha'ira.

sorry for not being too clear and asking a lot, I have many questions and I do not have anyone to air them out with, since I feel like I'll just be wasting their time. I am actually close to Shaykh Asrar Rashid but never get the chance to talk to him. I wanted to come here as I saw Abu Hasan's threads, and they look very beneficial.

Can anyone help to answer questions or share resources to read?

jazakAllahu khayr w ahsan jaza
 

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wa alaykumus salam wa raHmatullah.
Ibby AH said:
have been thrown into all the polemics, as such I feel like I need to get that out of the way before carrying on with my studies.
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so you are serious to plow through stuff. it is necessary to define objectives - else we waste time - yours and ours.

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Ibby AH said:
Why do we not take from the same early books as the salafis? Books such as the one in the PDF shared from asharis.com.
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a rather entangled question, but i will try to answer this.

there are names mentioned in those books which are not extant anymore. the author acknowledges that himself. in which case, EVEN salafis do not take from those books. if they tell you they are "taking" from those books, they are obviously lying. of course, they may quote secondary and tertiary references by mostly modern wahabi/salafi heretics, who mention that such a statement is in that book [which doesn't exist] and then like modern atheists, use that assumption as incontrovertible evidence.

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but before i comment on the screed of idiots and shameless heretics, i have to tell you what i think of them and their stupid lies.
the morons don't have reasoning capabilities. they lie. and they lie some more. and based on previous lies, they tell bigger lies.

i once went to their site - upon a brother's suggestion - and read some articles and i was flabbergasted. one can debate a sane person, we would be fools if we debate with idiots who became insane and who had an inveterate habit of lying and deception was second nature to them. even after going insane, they didn't lose their skills of deception and lying.

i don't have time to call out all their lies, but i will sample some just to show you how their stupid framework is shaky. they wish to build a skyscraper on a foundation of rotten wood.

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Ibby AH said:
Why do we not take from the same early books as the salafis? Books such as the one in the PDF shared from asharis.com.
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i will take some time out to check out all the books you have mentioned.

wa billahi't tawfiq.
 
i will mark out those books which are available as and when i get time. i believe the author has indicated the available works by marking them in bold.

notice the deception of the zanadiqah. in order to give an impression to clueless readers, they simply add chapters from books as "aqidah salaf" and then claim that we deny them.

16 & 17 are not separate books. they are chapters in sahih bukhari. which sunni imam has denied or "not taken" from sahih bukhari?

20,21,22 are chapters from the same book. sunan abu dawud. same question. which sunni rejects, denies or 'does not take from it'?

36 is aqidah al-tahawiyyah. this is a book that none of these shameless heretics can deny. it declares in the opening that it is the aqidah of the salaf, that is imam abu hanifah and his students. anticipating this attack, the heretic tries to downplay it in the footnote claiming it to be his own and not ours.

also books of imams tabarani, ibn khuzaymah, imam ahmad, and others.

those who are not well-versed with the deception of the hashawiyy khubatha, will foolishly believe that this list is 'salafi book list'. whereas, mentioning imams in the list is ONLY to sneak in the anthropomorphic works of certain mubtadiys - OR blatant taHrif made in books of imams. right now, my objective is to only point out the fallacy of begging the question.
Ibby AH said:
Why do we not take from the same early books as the salafis? Books such as the one in the PDF shared from asharis.com.
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who said we do not take from most of the books of ayimmah? anyone who makes a claim should furnish proof. give me a list of books "rejected" by the noble imams of ahlus sunnah - meaning the ashari-maturidi-hanbali (non-tajsim) group of ulama.

i will also comment about other books in sha'Allah. as and when get time.

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1. Kitāb al-Ṣifāt of Ḥammād bin Salamah (d. 167H)

2. Imām ʿAbd Allāh bin al-Mubārak (d. 181H)

3. Yahyā bin Saʿīd al-Qaṭṭān al-Baṣrī (d. 198H)

4. Uṣūl al-Sunnah of al-Ḥāfidh al-Ḥumaydī (d. 220H)

5. Kitāb al-Īmān by the Imām, Abū ʿUbayd al-Qāsim bin Sallām (d. 224H)

6. Nuʿaym bin Ḥammād (d. 228H) who authored 13 books in refutation of the Jahmiyyah

7. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah of ʿAbd Allāh bin Muhammad al-Jaʿfī (d.229H) the Shaykh of al-Bukhārī

8. Kitāb ul-Īmān by the Imām Ibn Abī Shaybah (d. 235H)

9. Muḥammad bin Isḥāq Ibn Rāhūyah (d. 238H)

10. Kitāb al-Ḥaydah101 by ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz al-Kinānī (d. 240H), the associate of Imām al-Shāfiʿī.

11. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah wal-Zanādiqah of Imām Ahmad (d. 241H)

12. ʿUṣūl al-Sunnah by Imām Aḥmad bin Ḥanbal (d. 241H)

13. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Muḥammad bin Aslam al-Ṭūsī (d. 242H)

14. Kitāb al-Istiqāmah103 by al-Ḥāfidh Abū ʿĀṣim Khasīsh bin Aṣram (d.253H), the Shaykh of Abū Dāwūd and al-Nasā'ī

15. Khalq Afʿāl al-ʿIbād by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)

16. Kitāb al-Īmān in the Ṣaḥīḥ by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)

17. Kitāb al-Tawḥīd in the Ṣaḥīḥ by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)

18. Al-Sunnah by Isḥāq bin Ḥanbal (d. 273H)

19. Al-Sunnah by the student of Imām Aḥmad, Abū Bakr al-Athram (d.273H)

20. Kitāb al-Sunnah in the Sunan by the Faqīh and Īmām Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)

21. Bāb Fī al-Jahmiyyah in the Sunan by Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)

22. Bāb Fī al-Irjā' in the Sunan by Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)

23. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Imām Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276H)

24. Aṣl al-Sunnah by the hāfidh and Imām, Abū Hātim al-Rāzī (d. 277H)

25. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by the Hāfidh and Muḥaddith ʿUthmān bin Saʿīd al-Dārimī (d. 280H)

26. Al-Radd ʿalā Bishr al-Marīsī also by al-Dārimī (d. 280H)

27. Risālah Fī Ann al-Qurʾān Ghayr Makhlūq by al-Ḥāfidh Ibrāhīm al-Ḥarbī (d. 285H)

28. Al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī and Ḥāfidh, Ibn Abī ʿĀṣim (d. 287H)

29. Al-Sunnah by the Ḥāfidh, ʿAbd Allāh bin Imām Aḥmad (d. 290H)

30. Al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī, Muḥaddith Abū Bakr al-Marrūdhī (d. 292H)

31. Al-Sunnah by the student of Imām Ahmad, al-Marwazī (d. 292H)

32. Al-Sunnah by al-Ḥakam bin Maʿbad al-Khuzāʿī 106 (d. 295H), the Muḥaddith and Ḥanafī faqīh

33. Ṣarīh al-Sunnah by the Mufassir, Imām, Ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310H)

34. Tabṣīr Fī Maʿālim al-Dīn by Ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310H)

35. Kitāb al-Tawhīd by the faqīh and Imām, Ibn Khuzaymah (d. 311H)

36. Al-ʿAqīdat al-Ṭaḥāwiyyah by the Imām Abū Jaʿfar al-Tahāwī (d.321H)

37. Al-Ibānah108 of Abū al-Ḥasan al-Ashʿarī (d. 324H)

38. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Ibn Abī Ḥātim (d. 327H)109

39. Sharh al-Sunnah by Imām al-Barbāharī (d. 329H)

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later period

1. Kitāb al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī, Abū Aḥmad al-ʿAsāl (d. 349H)

2. Al-Sharī'ah by the Faqīh and Imām, Abū Bakr al-Āajurrī (d. 360H)

3. Kitāb al-Sunnah by the Imām, Abū al-Qāsim al-Ṭabarānī (d. 360H)

4. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by the Imām, Abū al-Qāsim al-Ṭabarānī (d.360H)

5. Al-Sunnah of al-Ḥāfidh Abū al-Shaykh al-Aṣbahānī (d. 369H)

6. Kitāb al-Ṣifāt by the Ḥāfidh, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī al-Dārquṭnī (d. 385H)

7. Kitāb al-Nuzūl by the Ḥāfidh, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī al-Dārquṭnī (d. 385H)

8. Al-Ibaanah by Ibn Baṭṭah al-ʿUkbaree (d. 387H)

9. Kitāb al-Īmān by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, Ibn Mandah (d. 395H)

10. Kitāb al-Tawhīd by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, Ibn Mandah (d. 395H)

11. Sharh usūl Iʿtiqād Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamāʿah by the Ḥāfidh and Faqīh, Imām al-Lālikā'ī (d. 418H)

12. Kitāb al-ʿUṣūl by Abū ʿUmar al-Ṭalamankī (d. 429H)

13. Al-Iʿtiqād by Abu Nuʿaym al-Asbahānī (d. 430H)

14. Al-Mukhtār Fī Uṣūl al-Sunnah by the Imām Ibn al-Bannā111 (d. 471H)

15. Aqīdah al-Salaf wa Asḥāb al-Ḥadīth by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, Abū ʿUthmān al-Ṣabūnī (d. 449H)

16. Sharh al-Sunnah of Imām al-Baghawī (d. 516H)

17. Kitāb al-Hujjah Fī Bayān al-Mahajjah by Abū al-Qāsim Ismā'īl bin Muḥammad al-Asbahānī (d. 535H)

18. Sharh Iʿtiqād Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamāʿah by Abū al-Qāsim Ismā'īl bin Muḥammad al-Asbahānī (d. 535H)
 
those who rile against kalam and mutakallimin in our times, have no minds.

of course, we find criticism of ilm al-kalam in the kalam/statements of salaf, but that is in its appropriate context. however, post 300 AH, that which we term kalam is a necessary tool. anyone who criticises kalam is no less stupid than the person who criticises the printing press or learning/teaching the english language.

the printing press was invented to print bibles large scale.
initially ulama were apprehensive of mistakes creeping in works, so they restricted it to non-religious works; hence fatawa of impermissibility in using the printing press for religious literature.
then they realised that it is a tool that can be tamed, controlled and exploited for good.

only a nincompoop will say: 'you are following the sunnah of bible publishers'.

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the science of kalam rose as a response to attacks on islamic aqidah by insidious enemies who appealed to reason. our ulama, took the same concepts and refuted them.

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in a broad sense, the pseudo-salafi-hashawiy (PSH) - like all the mad heretics at asharis.com - focus on aayat al-sifaat and narrations related to this. they are crippled to counter any attack by atheists and new-age philosophies. therefore you will see narrations that refute jahamiyyah and heretics of yore.

imagine you have to debate dawkins or any other modern enemy of islam on various criticisms of islam. will you find it in explicit "narrations"?
what if you don't have narrations? will you 'extrapolate' those narrations? will you use any rational device to debate with new-age atheists? or simply say: 'we will stick to quran and hadith literally'.

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it is only ilm al-kalam enables you to debate with any philosophy and any attack on islamic aqidah. because they laid down rules deriving from the qur'an and the sunnah on the basis of our aqidah and defined what is intransigent, and what is subjective and so on.

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Ibby AH said:
With the extensive refutations of public figures and mutakallimeen + claimed links of greek philosophy to kalaam, and no qur'aan and sunnah being cited in the mutakallimeen's books
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this is a lie.

kalam books in general have two parts:

- first is the rational argument which is the basis to debate on rational grounds. this also can be classified as addresssing two kinds opponents

* those who believe in the qur'an / those who are part of the muslim community - various heretics such as rawafid, khawarij, mutazilah, jahmiyyah, hashwiyyah, taymiyyites etc.

* those who do not believe in islam or even in the existence of God. these are the philosophers

- second is the sam'yiyyat - the portion which relates to aqidah as we know from the qur'an and sunnah.

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Ibby AH said:
I have a hard time trying to study kalam since I do not understand it well and like the simplicity of salafi aqeedah.
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if you do not have a car, and you haven't learned to drive, you must walk. you cannot say - those who drive cars are unable to walk OR one HAS to walk. because the salafi disavowal of "following", is explicit refusal of taking a bus or taxi or someone else taking in the vehicle.

by "salafi aqeedah" you mean literalist - modern day dictionary compatible reading of quran and hadith.

if you resort to explain EVEN one word, we ask you why should it be restricted to only one word? for example the verse of surah nur 24:35:

nur, s24v35.png


according to simple salafi aqeedah - the light in the heavens and the earth is Allah. so 'light is god'.
if you try giving explanations, i ask you why are YOU allowed to make ta'weel and why does it become shirk when others do it?

another aayat, surat zukhruf, 24:35

zukhruf, s43v84.png


according to salafi simple aqidah: He is the God in the heavens and God IN the earth.
so is God on the earth? if so, then what is the point of being on the 'arsh? does he come down to earth or stay on arsh?

now, if you try to 'explain' this, you must ask who makes the distinction of which aayat can be ta'wiled and which aayat cannot?
and of course, why are YOU allowed to make ta'wil and why not others?

--
also, no need to explain this to me. i know the tawilat of ahl al sunnah. alHamdulillah i am a maturidi.
 
Ibby AH said:
I have a hard time trying to study kalam since I do not understand it well and like the simplicity of salafi aqeedah.
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please don't be offended brother by my tone - it is not against you per se, but the shameless PSH gang.
you will understand it, if you approach it as a student and with some help and proper guidance you can grasp it.
to turn it around - what exactly did you find confounding in which book?
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Ibby AH said:
sorry for not being too clear and asking a lot, I have many questions and I do not have anyone to air them out with
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its ok. we won't mind as long you approach this as a seeker.
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abu Hasan said:
25. Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by the Hāfidh and Muḥaddith ʿUthmān bin Saʿīd al-Dārimī (d. 280H)
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i recently had a conversation with a brother in PM on this darimi. i will post a separate thread on this.

there are two darimis:

the author of sunan/musnad al-darimi, whom i quoted recently in another thread:

1. Abu Muhammad Abdullah ibn Abdul-Rahman ibn Fadl al-Darimi [d. 255 AH]

2. Abu Sayid Uthman ibn Sayid al-Darimi [d. 280 AH]​

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the first is among the major imams of hadith. the second is a controversial figure. some ulama called him anthropomorphist - al-kawthari and sh.sayid following him. but some others considered him a sunni imam, albeit his books were tampered with - so we cannot judge him by the now available editions of his books.
 
the list is also 'choosy'. it mentions books that they have not even seen - but will ignore books that are present.
they will mention a book that the devils think they can exploit for their purpose, but will ignore other books by the SAME author.

in fact, they will mention a chapter in imam bukhari's sahih as in favour of their putrid aqidah, but they will conveniently ignore imam bukhari's explanation of the same!

the PSH is a raving madman.

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what about imam abu hanifah's al-fiqh al-akbar and the rest of his books?
was he not among the salaf? in fact he is senior to every one in the list!

why is that book not in that list [assuming it is a complete list as cited. i tried to find the full book, but i only found snippets]
 
jazakAllahu khayr for your responses.

abu Hasan said:
please don't be offended brother by my tone
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I won't be.

abu Hasan said:
what about imam abu hanifah's al-fiqh al-akbar and the rest of his books?
was he not among the salaf? in fact he is senior to every one in the list!
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I guess this again ties in with the discussion. I have seen Salafis state that to be a Maturidi / Ash'ari you would need to make ta'n on the scholars of ahl al hadeeth, akin to how Zahid al Kawthari does in their view against scholars who made jarh on Imam Abu Hanifa.

abu Hasan said:
what exactly did you find confounding in which book?
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As I stated, I have tried studying Imam Sabuni's Bidayah, Sanusi's creed and some other readings. I found really that for example with Naqd risala tadmuriyyah, it refutes Ibn Taymiyyah from the angle of kalam, and I didn't see much qur'an or sunnah quoted in the book. This is why Salafi athari aqeedah appeals to me since it just quotes narrations from the salaf on matters.

I guess me not knowing Arabic as well, is not helping. There doesn't seem to be a book that appeals to me from ahl al kalam in english.

abu Hasan said:
who said we do not take from most of the books of ayimmah? anyone who makes a claim should furnish proof.
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I guess this opens another discussion, how early can we go back in terms of aqeedah? There are claims kitab as sunnah etc that Imam Abu Hanifa died a jahmi, ma'azAllah. It is these narrations from the ahl al hadeeth that discourage me from following ahl al kalam.

abu Hasan said:
it is necessary to define objectives - else we waste time - yours and ours.
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Getting into all this has just made me think I should not study Aqeedah at all, due to the polemics confusing me. I suppose I just want an aqeedah reading list that goes back to the salaf in it's understanding.

A problem I have is the points of disagreement are quite advanced in nature, such as kalamullah. I find myself falling back on simple Salafi aqeedah in these matters.

abu Hasan said:
i will take some time out to check out all the books you have mentioned.

wa billahi't tawfiq.
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May Allah reward your efforts in answering my queries.

Another point I want to re mention which is quoted by asharis.com a lot, around 100AH to 300AH, we see the salaf takfeering the jahmiyyah, and from around 400AH, we see takfeer of the ashaira start to take place (Dhamm al Kalam, writings from Imam ibn Qudama in his book about talking with ash'aris on kalamullah). How would these narrations be explained?

abu Hasan said:
who said we do not take from most of the books of ayimmah?
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Linking back to this, do maturidis take from the books listed? As I mentioned for example with Kitab at Tawheed li Imam ibn Khuzayma, ar Razi + Imam Kawthari both called it Kitab ash Shirk.

Do ahl al kalam generally dislike ahl al hadeeth? This is another thing I find myself disagreeing with.
 
Ibby AH said:
Do ahl al kalam generally dislike ahl al hadeeth? This is another thing I find myself disagreeing with.
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you are taken in with the accursed lies of the filthy zanadiqah. the salafi zanadiqah lie with the ease of a donkey rummaging its snout in a garbage dump.

some of the biggest hadith imams are ashayirah - like imam hakim for example, his student bayhaqi, ibn asakir, qadi iyad, it is even silly to list the names. almost all of them are ashayirah.

imam Hakim, khatib baghdadi, bayhaqi, and among latter ulama ibn SalaH, abu shamah, nawawi ibn abdu's salam, ibn daqiq al yid - all ashayirah!
 
Ibby AH said:
jazakAllahu khayr for your responses.

I guess this opens another discussion, how early can we go back in terms of aqeedah? There are claims kitab as sunnah etc that Imam Abu Hanifa died a jahmi, ma'azAllah. It is these narrations from the ahl al hadeeth that discourage me from following ahl al kalam.

Getting into all this has just made me think I should not study Aqeedah at all, due to the polemics confusing me. I suppose I just want an aqeedah reading list that goes back to the salaf in it's understanding.


Linking back to this, do maturidis take from the books listed? As I mentioned for example with Kitab at Tawheed li Imam ibn Khuzayma, ar Razi + Imam Kawthari both called it Kitab ash Shirk.
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Kitāb al-Sunnah of ʿAbdullāh bin Aḥmad is falsely attributed to him as there are two unknowns in the chain to the book. Unknowns cannot be used as proof in the fundamentals of religion. Khaṭīb narrates with a sound chain that Abū ḥanīfa considered Jahm to be a kafir why then would he pass away a jahmi. This is from one of the errors of those who criticised Imām Abū Ḥanīfa.

Stick to the basics of Aqeedah. Read Imām al-Tahawi's Aqeedah which has been translated into english alongside the commentary of Sirāj al-Dīn al-Ghaznawi. This book clearly states in the beginning this is a book in which i am mentioning the doctrine of the jurist of this nation; Abū Ḥanīfa Nuʿmān ibn Thabit al-Kufi, Abī Yūsuf Yaʿqūb bin Ibrāhīm al-Anṣārī and Abī ʿAbdillāh Muḥammad bin al-Ḥasan al-Shaybānī may Allāh be pleased with them. This is a book in which there is agreement upon so stick to this.

Kitāb al-Tawhid of Muḥammad bin Isḥāq it is said the Imām al-Bayhaqī had stated he regretted authoring Al-Tawhid [which is filled with anthropomorphism (although i have not read it)] and he returned back to the way of the salaf.
 
abu Hasan said:
some of the biggest hadith imams are ashayirah
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I know, however aren't these later imams?

Ali_Bash said:
Stick to the basics of Aqeedah. Read Imām al-Tahawi's Aqeedah which has been translated into english alongside the commentary of Sirāj al-Dīn al-Ghaznawi.
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Alhamdulillah I have a copy. I stopped reading it entirely due to all these polemics. I will resume reading it in sha Allah.

abu Hasan said:
any follow up post will be only after ramadan. in sha'Allah.
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No worries

jazakumAllahu khayran to you both for taking the time out to reply.
 
Ibby AH said:
I know, however aren't these later imams?
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Later Imams who evaluated what the earliers stated and meant. Imam Bukhārī and Imām Muslim were students of Ibn Kullab.
Imām al-Dāraquṭnī kissed the head of Imām al-Baqillani and considered him a defender of Islam. Which is why al-Harawi became ashʿarī and spread the beliefs of the ashʿāirah.
You are either a Ashʿarī or Maturidi who delved into Kalam to combat other deviated sect who relied on aql alone. Or a Hanabli and if you wish to follow the ḥanbalī/athari school then it must be devoid of Ibn Taymiyyah or those who follow him. Allāh Knows best
 
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Ali_Bash said:
You are either a Ashʿarī or Maturidi who delved into Kalam to combat other deviated sect who relied on aql alone. Or a Hanabli and if you wish to follow the ḥanbalī/athari school then it must be devoid of Ibn Taymiyyah or those who follow him. Allāh Knows best
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Exactly. One must understand that when "salafis" say they follow the athari aqidah, what they really mean is the mujassimah aqidah.
 
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