Some questions regarding kufr and takfir

[Noori]

In general, how does once ascertain whether something is iltizam ul kufr or luzum ul kufr?

What is the ruling on believing an individual doesn't become a kafir for doing iltizam ul kufr out of ignorance?

Meaning, if somebody did kufr iltizami and was unaware of whether that particular action/belief is kufr iltizami but knows that it is wrong, and repents, is such a repentance valid?

What if they don't know the ruling that what they have done/believed is kufr? Will tawbah be valid or must they first learn the hukm on what they have done, if it is actually iltizam ul kufr?

answers to these questions depend on understanding the definitions of luzūm and iltizām—when a statement or action falls under the category of luzūm, and when it is considered iltizām.

i would prefer to leave this for side aH to answer, as the best explanation will certainly come from him.

also, there are very fine details involved—subtleties that many people either overlook or have become confused about in our time. i would rather stay on the learning side, as i am still a beginner on the path of knowledge.

 

[ghulamRasool]

السلام علیکم۔
1) If someone hears a phrase which he doubts might be kufr but he is unsure due to lack of knowledge so he asks a mufti sahab to find out and turns out that the statement which he inquired about is kufr sareeh muta'ayyan. Would this make him a kafir for doubting it before asking the mufti sahab.
For example, regarding the kufr of the deobandis. If a laymen read those for the first time and found them to be wrong but thought that perhaps there is a way that they might be saved from takfir so I should I ask a mufti sahab about whether this is kufr sareeh or not. Then he asks the mufti sahab and he tells him that this is kufr sareeh and now he considers them a kafir.

 

[ghulamRasool]

Salam
1) What is the ruling on tutoring people english language and literature or science. I did gcses in england. The books taught in english there are filled with kufr and shirk and non islamic ideologies: shakespeare's plays (especially macbeth which is what I was taught), a christmas carol etc. I asked ulama about quoting kufr and quite a few of them said that it is in not permissible to quote kufr even with attribution and instead you must only quote with refutation. Such as: Evolutionists believe that such and such, but this is incorrect and the correct belief is that humans were created by Allah." or after quoting, you can say that "I don't agree with this". But how does one teach people this whilst tutoring and the person he is tutoring is a non muslim since he doesn't believe in Islam?


2) I also wanted to ask that I had another conversation with the azhari teacher I mentioned earlier (you might remember regarding allama saeedi sahab's tafsir). We had a conversation regarding takfir. "He said that he would never do takfir since takfir is only the job of a qadi. A layperson, and even a mufti, can't make takfir. i would consider the statement to be kufr but not do takfir". A few months later, I asked him a particular person from pakistan who believes that imam ali is greater than all prophets except prophet sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam. He said that "As for any specific case or person that has said this or is accused of saying it then they should be referred to the ulama Qadhi who will investigate and if need be declare a verdict that the person is a Kafir". Is he correct in saying this? Does he mean that a normal person can't call that person a kafir? How can someone say kufr sareeh mata'ayyan, become a kafir and your not do takfir of him?
BTW all of our conversations took place on whatsapp.

 

[ghulamRasool]

السلام علیکم
what is the hukm on someone who considers sayyiduna maryam to be a prophetess? In the ask-mufti group chat of dawat e islami, they said he is kafir. But I had heard that there was a minority position within the asha'irah so asked another reliable scholar who said:
"The hukum of kufr being applied is very strict, lest there is definitive source proving so. Nonetheless, it is stated in al Qur'ān al Karīm sūrah yūsuf 109, sūrah nahl 43 & sūrah anbiya 7 that Allāh has only sent down revelation upon men but the aspect of revelation (wahī) is also proven upon ذوى العقول and غير ذوى العقول.

Allāh also stated that we have sent wahī upon the mother of mūsā (عليه السلام) and wahī is also linked towards the نحل (bee) aswell. Hence, there is a distinction between wahī & nubuwwat. The position of the ma'turidiyah is that only men are nabīs and majority of the ashā'irah also hold this very position. However, there were some weak positions that state otherwise but no one in Islamic history placed hukum of kufr on such a person, he will be misguided (i believe Ibn hazam also apdoted this position of nubuwwat for women)"
That scholar also said that "As for reliability then you may also check with a scholar/muftī on this issue aswell confirming the above response". So I thought to ask it here.

 

[Talib-al-Khayr]

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته
It is well known - and you can refer to the commentaries on texts such as Jawharah al-Tawhīd - that Sayyidah Maryam (amongst others) is considered a prophetess by some of the scholars, but the jumhūr ahl al-sunnah maintain that being male is a condition for prophethood and thus, do not consider Sayyidah Maryam a Prophet.

To believe she is a Prophetess is neither kufr nor bid'ah. Will hopefully provide some references soon.

 

[ghulamRasool]

To believe she is a Prophetess is neither kufr nor bid'ah. Will hopefully provide some references soon.

But here, mufti sahab is giving a dars on al mutaqad and quotes it and says that imam razi and qadi baydawi quote ijma on hazrat maryam radi Allahu anha not being a prophet. (at around 50:00)

Furthermore the alim e deen who said it was misguidance also gave more references. He said:
"It's mentioned in al bahr al muhīt that imām qādhī iyādh stated that the majority are not on this opinion that sayyidah maryam is a prophet. Likewise, allāma nawawī in his al adhkār from imām al haramain that he transmitted a consensus upon the fact that sayyidah maryam is not a prophet and imām hassan al basrī also stated the same and some scholars perform tawaquff (توقف) on this masa'lah such as imām subkī.

As for your question, the ibārat which I quoted in my original answer on Islamic Queries mentioning imām al qurtubīs ibārat:
والصحيح أنها نبية -
this isn't imām al qurtubīs original ibārat, rather he transmitted this from his teacher, shaykh abul abbās al qurtubī from his sharh of sahīh muslim, namely 'al mufhim' & a student copying the ibārat of his teacher is a good thing, doesn't necessarily mean that allāma qurtubī al malikī also held the same position."

In the light of the above, ijma on a point of creed means ijma of the mutakallimeen, and if the opinion of a non mutakallim goes against ijma then that doesn't remove the ijma and is considered shadh. So what would this mean for the hukm on an individual who holds this position?

 

[ghulamRasool]

salam, another question
regarding this passage of peer karam shah. I have heard ulama criticise this a lot but have been aware recently that when the word sitam zareefi is used as an idafa to qudrah then it means something other than zulm in urdu adab. Is this correct and what is the hukm on this pasage

 

[abu Hasan]

what is the hukm on this pasage

this is not blasphemy or kufr. of c it could be avoided and this is why people should stick to alahazrat's school.

though we criticise karam shah, here the words are not taken literal. sitam-e-zarifi is an idiom used here to mean "irony".

sitam-e-zarifi can have two meanings:

hansi-hansi mein sataana: causing trouble or pain playfully or in jest. or causing hurt, but all the while laughing - i.e. to hide one's causing trouble by outwardly being jovial.​

satanay mein hansi ka pahlu: when one is causing trouble or hurting, there is an aspect of humour. dark humour.​

i do not know which context he is talking about in this quoted passage - but it appears he is talking about the wonders of nature and the nature of man: (purely based on the few lines cited; please give additional context)

- the natural scenery is so beautiful that one is attracted towards it
- secondly, the secret which makes this so beautiful and attractive is unknow
- on top of this: (sitam e zarifi) - he put inside man an insatiable thirst to know and to investigate.​

so yes, sitam-e-zarifi could be avoided and said instead: "is par lutf ki baat yeh hai.."
but since it is an idiom, he escapes the hukm. Allah ta'ala knows best.
----
ghazab kia teray wa'aday pay iytibar kia
does not mean that the poet went ballistic and became extremely angry after accepting the promise.

here ghazab, means 'a blunder' - i did a mistake relying upon your promise.

 

[Talib-al-Khayr]

If one takes such a shadh position they are simply mistaken.

some scholars perform tawaquff (توقف) on this masa'lah such as imām subkī.

As for your question, the ibārat which I quoted in my original answer on Islamic Queries mentioning imām al qurtubīs ibārat:
والصحيح أنها نبية -
this isn't imām al qurtubīs original ibārat, rather he transmitted this from his teacher, shaykh abul abbās al qurtubī from his sharh of sahīh muslim, namely 'al mufhim' & a student copying the ibārat of his teacher is a good thing, doesn't necessarily mean that allāma qurtubī al malikī also held the same position."

In Umdah al-Murīd, the commentary to Jawharah al-Tawhīd by the author himself, he mentions the ikhtilāf regarding the Nubuwwah of 4 women, and he says that Imam Qurtubi in his Sharh Sahih Muslim chose the position of Sayyidah Maryam having Nubuwwah.

Secondly, the answer can somewhat be found within what you have stated. Imam Subki wouldn't do tawaqquf if the issue was one of complete consensus amongst ahlus sunnah, plus why would it be good for Imam Qurtubi to transmit the position of his teacher if it was a position entailing fisq? He took the position himself.

That being said, the overwhelming majority of Ahlus sunnah take the position that there were only male Prophets, and there is no need to take a minority position as such when the evidences for all Prophets being male are far stronger.

 

[abu Hasan]

what is the hukm on someone who considers sayyiduna maryam to be a prophetess? In the ask-mufti group chat of dawat e islami, they said he is kafir.

no one did takfir on this issue.

and wahī is also linked towards the نحل (bee) aswell.

waHy here does not mean waHy of nubuwwat. is this talking about ONE specific bee - or bees in general? if so, then is the waHy on every bee?

actually, naHl here refers to the species. and waHy means taught them how to extract material from the flowers and convert it into sweet honey. so waHy here means ilhaam - meaning knowledge that is innate (i.e. bestowed by Allah without any intermediary).

for example:

وإذْ أوْحَيْتُ إلى الحَوارِيِّينَ
and when I gave inspiration to the companions [of yisa alayhis salam]​

hawariyyun: the companions or disciples of sayyiduna yisa alayhis salam;
here, their hearts were inspired to accept the message and they believed in the messengers. no one can say that they were prophets.

یَوۡمَىِٕذࣲ تُحَدِّثُ أَخۡبَارَهَا ۝٤ بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوۡحَىٰ لَهَا
on that day, it [the earth] will report its news; because your Lord-Creator commanded it [to do so].
​

here waHy is used to mean 'command': the Lord Almighty will command the earth to report about all that happened on it.

---

Would this make him a kafir for doubting it before asking the mufti sahab.

this and the 1001 tafri'aat - all lead back to the basic principles i have mentioned in the beginning of the thread. you can keep asking another thousand such examples.

For example, regarding the kufr of the deobandis. If a laymen read those for the first time and found them to be wrong but thought that perhaps there is a way that they might be saved from takfir so I should I ask a mufti sahab about whether this is kufr sareeh or not. Then he asks the mufti sahab and he tells him that this is kufr sareeh and now he considers them a kafir.

here also if the person hesitates fearing he may be making a mistake in doing takfir - and refers to a mufti, it is not "doubting". rather, it is "waiting for clarification"

when it is clarified that it is an 'explicit insult' - and that it was said about sayyiduna Rasulillah, sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, but still doubts that the person did not become kafir, then it incurs the takfir of "man shakka fi kufrihi..."

 

[abu Hasan]

Does this mean that the mufti who gave those fatawa are sinful according to the ulama who consider them mistaken. I had heard that if a mufti does his best and then even if he is mistaken, he is rewarded.

innama'l a'amalu bin-niyyat.

Is he correct in saying this? Does he mean that a normal person can't call that person a kafir? How can someone say kufr sareeh mata'ayyan, become a kafir and your not do takfir of him?

there are some things which are explicitly kufr. one does not refer to a qadi or a mufti.
bowing down in front of an idol is kufr. insulting prophets is kufr. disbelieving in faraid like prayer and fasting in ramadan is kufr.

but there are other things which common people or even scholars with basic knowledge may not know. they are advised to refer to more knowledgeable scholars or muftis or qadis.

---

But how does one teach people this whilst tutoring and the person he is tutoring is a non muslim since he doesn't believe in Islam?

even if you teach it as a subject in school - you clarify that this is how it is taught, and you do not believe it. in fact, i advised my kids to either skip the questions or write: "according to scientists," in their exams.

 

[AbdalQadir]

write: "according to scientists," in their exams.

Brother wouldn't that too fall under the ruling of "unnecessarily citing kufr", even if you mention 'according to scientists, vedas etc.' as ghulamTaha is asking?

Does citation of kufr always have to be for refutation only or only informing or teaching other Muslims? Indian schooling involves stories from their religion left, right and center.

 

[abu Hasan]

Indian schooling involves stories from their religion left, right and center.

unfortunately.
but also, if you do not pass the exams and get degrees - your chances of employment become even lesser in an already prejudiced country.
---
these are challenges of a modern world, we have to navigate. not that we love to say these things - rather we just mention them as said in their books or theories for the sake of exams and move on. in most cases, children do not even understand the import of the those answers - they just memorise them and write them.

 

[abu Hasan]

Indian schooling involves stories from their religion left, right and center.

urdu books were free from this nonsense - but of late, even urdu books are filled with their hindu propaganda under the guise of teaching diversity.

 

[Anwar.H]

no one did takfir on this issue.

So it's neither bidah nor kufr, just misguidance? Or is it still bidah?

In Umdah al-Murīd, the commentary to Jawharah al-Tawhīd by the author himself, he mentions the ikhtilāf regarding the Nubuwwah of 4 women, and he says that Imam Qurtubi in his Sharh Sahih Muslim chose the position of Sayyidah Maryam having Nubuwwah.

Btw who are the other 3 (or more) Sidi @abu Hasan or anyone else?

 

[abu Hasan]

So it's neither bidah nor kufr, just misguidance? Or is it still bidah?

it is minority opinion - actually one or two ulama - based on the jawaz. we cannot term it as bid'ah when it was said by ash'ari-maturidi ulama, especially prominent ulama. in this case, some ash'ari imams allowed it. and since this does not clash with any fundamental principle of aqidah, it is deemed a secondary or tertiary issue where an ijtihadi mistake is ignored.

of c, one may mention the aayah: "and we did not send (as messengers) except men (rijaal)" and that belief in a woman prophet is against this, and opposed to the qur'anic aayah. laazim aayega - it then follows that it is against the qur'an.

the answer is: in which case, there are aayats that say wahy, and istifa (in case of sayyidah mariyam) are mentioned - whcih could mean nubuwwat. thus those who deny nubuwwat for mariyam may also come under "contradicting the qur'an"

therefore, it is an ijtihadi mistake that can be ignored.

Allah ta'ala knows best.
---

tw who are the other 3 (or more) Sidi @abu Hasan or anyone else?

in the umdatu'l murid snippet cited by the brother (in arabic) it is mentioned:

sayyidah mariyam, sayyidah aasiyah (wife of firawn), sayyidah sarah and sayyidah hajar (hajirah).

 

[ghulamRasool]

salam.
Jazak Allahu khaira hazrat abu hasan for all you efforts

please give additional context

here also if the person hesitates fearing he may be making a mistake in doing takfir - and refers to a mufti, it is not "doubting". rather, it is "waiting for clarification"

Note: the following question is not regarding famous kufr sareeh such as tahrif ul qur'an, or finality of prophethood etc, but rather about statements of an individual.
Sorry again for so many cross questions. But a lot of the times, I have seen contradicting opinions from ulama regarding the takfir of someone. For example:
i) in dawat e islami farz uloom course, they said that the one who believes in khalq ul qur'an, according to us he is a kafir. Then I found out that this is kufr luzumi.
ii) From what I understood after reading the thread on tajsim is what to say that "Allah has a limbs but unlike the creation" is explicit kufr. But in zia al aqaid of mufti qasim zia sahab, it says it is kufr luzumi.
iii) I read that if one's parents died murtad then to read the dua which is normally read in salah is also kufr, but then Mufti akmal sahab said that with the intention of quoting, it is not kufr.
iv) Muzoor Muhaddis e kabeer said that tahir ul qadri is a kafir (I believe he also said that to doubt his kufr is kufr) but a mufti sahab (I will not name him but he is a senior mufti who is considered reliable by all scholars in england, he is from Pakistan but lives in england) takfir is not done of him, only tazleel. I asked him in urdu.
vi) Allama khr sahab said that imran khan's statement that "Allah ke habeeb (sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam) the. Lekin kitni mukhkilat ka samna karna pada. Logon ne mazak kia, zaleel kia, ostracize kia" is sareeh toheen. I asked the mufti sahab above and he said "it is not kufr but one should be cautious of one's wording" (though I don't think he knew about Allama khadim hussain rizvi sahab's video on this matter or that the one who said it was Imran khan). I asked him in urdu and he replied in urdu
vii) And then recently, the issue of Hazrat maryam being a prophet.

I am very anticipated for your answer on this matter. Since after waiting for clarification from a Mufti sahab, we are not allowed to doubt it being kufr, but it has happened to me so much that some scholars have said something to be kufr sareeh (or at least given this impression) and later on I find that, No it is not kufr sareeh. So, even if one thinks they have certianty in a kufr said by an individual, internally (would they willing to bet their life on that being kufr due to these past instances) since what if in the near future, it turns out that it wasn't kufr and he has been calling someone a kafir wrongly. If one is not willing to bet their life on something being kufr (or be bravely willing to say that "May the curse of Allah be upon me if zayd is not a kafir") due to certianty and another person being a kafir due to a Mufti's fatwa, then how can he claim to have yaqeen.
As a way of summary, if one hears zayd say something wrong and a mufti sahab say that this is kufr sareeh. It could be possible that later on he hears about an opinion that this is not kufr. What should one do in this scenario since one is suppose to pay utter most caution whilst doing takfir?

 

[Anwar.H]

Sidi @abu Hasan: And an ijtihadi mistake cannot be termed "misguidance" because the person who made the mistake will still get a reward for doing ijtihad, correct?

 

[abu Hasan]

i) in dawat e islami farz uloom course, they said that the one who believes in khalq ul qur'an, according to us he is a kafir. Then I found out that this is kufr luzumi.

yes. unless one explicitly says that the sifat of Allah is makhluq. this is a lengthy discussion.

ii) From what I understood after reading the thread on tajsim is what to say that "Allah has a limbs but unlike the creation" is explicit kufr. But in zia al aqaid of mufti qasim zia sahab, it says it is kufr luzumi.

maybe he has evidence for the statement; regardless, it is kufr to believe that Allah ta'ala has 'limbs' jawariH.

--

iii) I read that if one's parents died murtad then to read the dua which is normally read in salah is also kufr, but then Mufti akmal sahab said that with the intention of quoting, it is not kufr.

ulama have said that the "wali walidayya" in the dua can refer to hazrat aadam alayhis salam. unless one intends to pray for murtad with certain knowledge that he/she is a murtad, it is not kufr.

---

iv) Muzoor Muhaddis e kabeer said that tahir ul qadri is a kafir (I believe he also said that to doubt his kufr is kufr) but a mufti sahab (I will not name him but he is a senior mufti who is considered reliable by all scholars in england, he is from Pakistan but lives in england) takfir is not done of him, only tazleel. I asked him in urdu.

i too do not consider him a muslim for a number of reasons - but some ulama withhold out of caution. refer to my earlier posts. thus sunni ulama who refute him, but withhold from takfir, are also exempt.

---

vi) Allama khr sahab said that imran khan's statement that "Allah ke habeeb (sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam) the. Lekin kitni mukhkilat ka samna karna pada. Logon ne mazak kia, zaleel kia, ostracize kia" is sareeh toheen. I asked the mufti sahab above and he said "it is not kufr but one should be cautious of one's wording" (though I don't think he knew about Allama khadim hussain rizvi sahab's video on this matter or that the one who said it was Imran khan). I asked him in urdu and he replied in urdu

"zaleel kia" is an ugly description; and in a different age, it would incur a ruling of kufr. but since imran is not well versed in urdu and he doesn't understand the import of words, takfir can be avoided on THIS SPECIFIC issue, based on the context of the statement. though ulama have informed me that there are graver matters with imran. so i trust them. Allah knows best.

vii) And then recently, the issue of Hazrat maryam being a prophet.

clarified.

--
we are reaching the end of this thread - you are coming up with numerous use-cases and the rule of thumb is stated already. if you have very specific queries, you must consult a senior mufti and get clarifications. and even after clarifications if you have doubts, i suggest you ask learned people. i am wary of discussing this in public because common people will be disturbed needlessly and these questions can serve as a springboard for further variations that can border on dangerous territory.

nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
na'udhu billah min shururi anfusina

 

[abu Hasan]

@abu Hasan: And an ijtihadi mistake cannot be termed "misguidance" because the person who made the mistake will still get a reward for doing ijtihad, correct?

in all issues that are not related to aqidah. as for aqidah, mistakes can be deadly.