When does Istighaatha fall under Kufr or Shirk?

I

Ibby AH

sunniport user
salaam

I have been looking into Istighaatha - when does it fall under Kufr or Shirk?

An Ash'ari brother I know has said that doing istighaatha and asking someone to grant you a child or rizq or cure illness through powers granted to them by Allah SWT is kufr as you cannot ask what is from the sifaat af'al of Allah SWT. is this true?

Is there anywhere where I could read more on this?

jzk khayr
 
i have heard that asking an idol for help with the belief that it will give with the will of Allah is shirk al akbar.
Can anyone please explain why (principly) it would be shirk al akbar? Because the definition of shirk is that something falls under if it means association with the dhaat (worshiping another or considering another to be wajib ul wujud) or in sifaat (mentioned below from the pdf shared by mawlana aqdas sahab in another thread about tawhid and shirk).
upload_2025-5-16_19-39-50.png

But if someone asks an idol for help (for example if someone said "oh idol grant me a child") believing it will grant with the will of Allah, it doesn't have intrinsic ability to help but will help with the 'ata of Allah, and it only has limited power not unlimited, and that it is possible for it to undergo fana', and that it is not wajib ul wujud and rather a creation, and that the person asking is not doing it with the intention of worship but rather just asking, why would this fall under shirk al akbar?
 
The onus of proof is upon the claimant, anyone can claim anything using ashari maturidi buzz words..

Show us from the books of reliable ashari scholars like bajuri or sanusi or any reliable ashari or maturidi
 
is it also permissible to ask the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam for forgiveness, with the intention that the final forgiveness is only sought from Allah and only he gives it but by thinkin that by commiting those sins I displeased the messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam as well so I want to ask him to forgive me as well?
Is it true that if someone asks other than Allah to forgive him or to seek the qurb of a wali whilst doing khatam is kufr, if so then what are the details of that and are there specific intentions which they have to be preceded by for them to be kufr?
 
Allama Abdul Hakeem Sharaf Qadri in his من عقائد أهل السنة states in the first screenshot:
'The Ahlus Sunnah does not seek from the Prophets and Awliya anything except Dua'. This is in the miracles of the Awliya section after talking about Kasb so that's significant.

In the 2nd screenshot, even though he quotes from a ghair Muqallid, it states that a wali granting a child is Majaz Aqli, meaning he does not grant a child, Allah does. This is in the section of the different types of Nisbah. So no a Wali doesn't grant a child, doesn't have the power to, but can do dua.
Screenshot_20250517-004019_Drive.jpg
 
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Mufto Sardar Ahmad Chishti states a Wali can grant a child only through his dua. See the screenshot below.

Believing a Wali has been given power then acts independently is the belief of the Mutazila.

IMG_20250510_212703_216.jpg
 
Hassan_0123 said:
Allama Abdul Hakeem Sharaf Qadri in his من عقائد أهل السنة states in the first screenshot:
'The Ahlus Sunnah does not seek from the Prophets and Awliya anything except Dua'. This is in the miracles of the Awliya section after talking about Kasb so that's significant.

In the 2nd screenshot, even though he quotes from a ghair Muqallid, it states that a wali granting a child is Majaz Aqli, meaning he does not grant a child, Allah does. This is in the section of the different types of Nisbah. So no a Wali doesn't grant a child, doesn't have the power to, but can do dua. View attachment 10425
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barakAllahu feek for these informative screenshots. This makes sense that the Anbiya and Awliya ask Allah for a child through Dua and we should ask them for du'a

Is there anything from Imam Ahmad Raza more directly on this?
 
if these types of istighatha are majaz aqli, can they still be shirk / kufr?

or are they just haraam and avoided against?
 
Ibby AH said:
salaam

I have been looking into Istighaatha - when does it fall under Kufr or Shirk?

An Ash'ari brother I know has said that doing istighaatha and asking someone to grant you a child or rizq or cure illness through powers granted to them by Allah SWT is kufr as you cannot ask what is from the sifaat af'al of Allah SWT. is this true?

Is there anywhere where I could read more on this?

jzk khayr
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It is not Shirk and anywho says its Shirk does not understand what Tawheed is, nor what Shirk is. They believe in Khariji Tawheed n Shirk which has no Tawheed in it nor Shirk in it.

Read these three discussions in order:

https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/...ah-and-on-hadith-o-servants-of-allah-help-me/

https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/...-allah-istighathah-tawheed-shirk-and-worship/

https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/...hirk-without-ilahiyyah-and-niyyah-of-worship/

There is one more coming but there is delay on my side. Read these three. I doubt you will need to read second n third to understand the subject but reading these three will give u a comprehensive insight on subject n methodology involved in determining Tawheed/Shirk.
 
ghulamRasool said:
i have heard that asking an idol for help with the belief that it will give with the will of Allah is shirk al akbar.
Can anyone please explain why (principly) it would be shirk al akbar? Because the definition of shirk is that something falls under if it means association with the dhaat (worshiping another or considering another to be wajib ul wujud) or in sifaat (mentioned below from the pdf shared by mawlana aqdas sahab in another thread about tawhid and shirk).View attachment 10423
But if someone asks an idol for help (for example if someone said "oh idol grant me a child") believing it will grant with the will of Allah, it doesn't have intrinsic ability to help but will help with the 'ata of Allah, and it only has limited power not unlimited, and that it is possible for it to undergo fana', and that it is not wajib ul wujud and rather a creation, and that the person asking is not doing it with the intention of worship but rather just asking, why would this fall under shirk al akbar?
Click to expand...

SHIRK is not dependent upon asking an Idol or not and Tawheed is not dependent upon only asking Allah. Tawheed n Shirk is established n negated on basis of belief.

An idol is believed to be a DEITY, an Ilah, a Mabud this is first Shirk and even IF one does not ask from an idol anything you're still Mushrik, worst type of Kafir.

If you affirm Qadeem, unlimited, independent attribute, or any mentioned by you ... to a creation, directly or indirectly than you have raised the to level of Ilah/deity because qadeem ... is only qualities Allah rabbil Alameen. Once affirmed directly as in, Jesus is Qadeem/Eternal you have ascribed something which is unique to Allah and hence you indirectly ascribed him godhood. Hence it is deemed Shirk.

Mushrikeen may not have ascribed Qadeem ... To their gods/idols but they already ascribed godhood. Hence they are guilty of Shirk.

Qadeem etc principles allow us to determine if Ilahiyyah has been ascribed to a creation without clearly saying x y z is my Ilah. Where Ilahiyyah is already established why would we need make a judgement if it is warranted or not! It like i have cake, you can eat it, n u have rules to judge how cake is made. Polythiests of Makkah already had cake ... I mean they already had gods ... We don't need to check our recipe book to see if they made a cake. They already had gods.

There are atheists who believe universe is eternal, self-existing, creating destroying etc ... Are they Mushrik? What is Hukm on them? The principles you mentioned only come into action when someone doesn't claim to believe in a god other than Allah. In Atheist case he doesn't even believe in Allah. Yet atheist ascribes to universe a quality which is of Allah and regardless of how many times he protests in Islam that kind of Atheist would be Mushrik even though he does not directly ilahiyyah to anyone.

On side note worshipping another than Allah is Kufr not Shirk. Shirk is the belief which leads to worship of other than Allah not the worship of other than Allah.
 
MuhammedAli said:
Mushrikeen may not have ascribed Qadeem ... To their gods/idols but they already ascribed godhood. Hence they are guilty of Shirk.
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Jazak Allahu brother MuhammadAli. With all due respect, my question is a bit different. I was not talking about the mushrikeen of makkah.
I am talking about a hypothetical scenario, where someone asks an idol believing the idol to be a creation of Allah and says "this idol is only a creation, it doesn't have intrinsic capabilities, it will give but only with the will of Allah, it is not qadeem or wajib ul wujud, it is contingent, it is not God" and then asks it for help, would this be shirk al akbar or not?
MuhammedAli said:
On side note worshipping another than Allah is Kufr not Shirk. Shirk is the belief which leads to worship of other than Allah not the worship of other than Allah.
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Can mawlana Abu Hasan or mawlana Noori please comment on this? Is this true?
But one of the reasons for shirk fi Dhaat is to affirm someone other than Allah to be worthy of worship. So is the brother saying that the affirmation is shirk but not the actual "worship" (e.g. the actions of worshiping)? Is this true and please can you provide evidence for this?
 
ghulamRasool said:
Jazak Allahu brother MuhammadAli. With all due respect, my question is a bit different. I was not talking about the mushrikeen of makkah.
I am talking about a hypothetical scenario, where someone asks an idol believing the idol to be a creation of Allah and says "this idol is only a creation, it doesn't have intrinsic capabilities, it will give but only with the will of Allah, it is not qadeem or wajib ul wujud, it is contingent, it is not God" and then asks it for help, would this be shirk al akbar or not?

Can mawlana Abu Hasan or mawlana Noori please comment on this? Is this true?
But one of the reasons for shirk fi Dhaat is to affirm someone other than Allah to be worthy of worship. So is the brother saying that the affirmation is shirk but not the actual "worship" (e.g. the actions of worshiping)? Is this true and please can you provide evidence for this?
Click to expand...

Lets replace idol with something else in your question because IDOL by default is an ilah, god, mabud.

Lets assume your question was about statue:

"I have heard that asking statue for help with the belief that it will give with the will of Allah is shirk al akbar.
Can anyone please explain why (principly) it would be shirk al akbar? Because the definition of shirk is that something falls under if it means association with the dhaat (worshiping another or considering another to be wajib ul wujud) or in sifaat (mentioned below from the pdf shared by mawlana aqdas sahab in another thread about tawhid and shirk)."

YOU HEARD WRONG. IT IS NOT SHIRK BUT STUPID FOR SURE. Whoever told u this needs to learn Tawheed n Shirk and ome taught by Muslims n not of Kafirs.

Shirk is only warranted when a creation is ascribed Ilahiyyah/godhood to. This ascription can be direct as in, jesus is my lord/god, or indirectly, as in; the universe is eternal never came to exist it was always here.

Like i said before, seeking help from an idol doesn't make u Mushrik, n not seeking it doesn't make ur Tawheed safe. You can believe a statue, banana, jesus to be god n not seek anything from them n only seek from Allah n still be purest of mushriks on earth.
 
ghulamRasool said:
Jazak Allahu brother MuhammadAli. With all due respect, my question is a bit different. I was not talking about the mushrikeen of makkah.
I am talking about a hypothetical scenario, where someone asks an idol believing the idol to be a creation of Allah and says "this idol is only a creation, it doesn't have intrinsic capabilities, it will give but only with the will of Allah, it is not qadeem or wajib ul wujud, it is contingent, it is not God" and then asks it for help, would this be shirk al akbar or not?

Can mawlana Abu Hasan or mawlana Noori please comment on this? Is this true?
But one of the reasons for shirk fi Dhaat is to affirm someone other than Allah to be worthy of worship. So is the brother saying that the affirmation is shirk but not the actual "worship" (e.g. the actions of worshiping)? Is this true and please can you provide evidence for this?
Click to expand...

You mean a statue:

"I am talking about a hypothetical scenario, where someone asks a statue believing the statue to be a creation of Allah and says "this statue is only a creation, it doesn't have intrinsic capabilities, it will give but only with the will of Allah, it is not qadeem or wajib ul wujud, it is contingent, it is not God" and then asks it for help, would this be shirk al akbar or not?"

No its not Shirk. Corner stone of major Shirk is CREED; AFFIRMATION OF ILAHIYYAH. When ilahiyyah is present (ie ascribed to a creation) than every form help sought is worship and worship of ghayr of Allah is major Kufr. In absence of explicitly affirmed Ilahiyyah or implicitly deduced Ilahiyyah there can be no major Shirk, or worship.

Seeking HELP, of natural, or of supernatural type, none of it is Shirk. Shirk is affirmation of Ilahiyyah, Rububiyyah .... for a creation.
 
MuhammedAli said:
Like i said before, seeking help from an idol doesn't make u Mushrik, n not seeking it doesn't make ur Tawheed safe.
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Bro don't respond to queries if you're not fully adept in the masail you're dabbling with.

Fiqhi points are not made by such ott rhetorical comments.

You've made a nonsensical fiqh claim in your attempt to come out as a kalam champion!

I won't respond, will just let the other brothers correct you.
 
AbdalQadir said:
Bro don't respond to queries if you're not fully adept in the masail you're dabbling with.

Fiqhi points are not made by such ott rhetorical comments.

You've made a nonsensical fiqh claim in your attempt to come out as a kalam champion!

I won't respond, will just let the other brothers correct you.
Click to expand...

Learn your Deen n the Usool of Ahlus Sunnah. I have done my due diligence u should too.

What exactly have i wrote is problematic? Don't hold back the wrath of inadequate Minhaj police.
 
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