Deobandi lies and claims Imam Razi supported Allah can lie

H

Hanafi Maturidi Barkati

New Member
As mentioned previously, Umar Rumi gathered several Arabs on his Deobandi heresy propaganda telegram and WhatsApp, I got this message from one of the members


Al-Fakhr al-Rāzī destroys Ahmed Rida Khan Barelwi on Allah can lie, al-Rāzī in his commentary on the verse:

> “If You punish them, then indeed they are Your servants;
> and if You forgive them, then surely You are the Mighty, the Wise.”
> (Q 5:118)



Al-Rāzī states:
“On our view it is possible for Allah to admit the unbelievers to Paradise and to place the ascetics and the devout into Hell.”


[Al-Tafsīr al-Kabīr (Rāzī), 12:136]
Click to expand...

I am waiting for the whole article, if someone can lookup into this quote please.
 
Hanafi Maturidi Barkati said:
if someone can lookup into this quote please.
Click to expand...

This is what Imam Razi says in Mafatihul Ghayb, under 5:118 - the full paragraph.

إِنْ تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبادُكَ وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ (118)
فيه مَسَائِلُ:
الْمَسْأَلَةُ الْأُولَى: مَعْنَى الْآيَةِ ظَاهِرٌ، وَفِيهِ سُؤَالٌ: وَهُوَ أَنَّهُ كَيْفَ جَازَ لِعِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ أَنْ يَقُولَ وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ واللَّه لَا يَغْفِرُ الشِّرْكَ.
وَالْجَوَابُ عَنْهُ مِنْ وُجُوهٍ: الْأَوَّلُ: أَنَّهُ تَعَالَى لَمَّا قَالَ لِعِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ: أَأَنْتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّي إِلهَيْنِ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ [الْمَائِدَةِ: 116] عُلِمَ أَنَّ قَوْمًا مِنَ النَّصَارَى حَكَوْا هَذَا الْكَلَامَ عَنْهُ، وَالْحَاكِي لِهَذَا الْكُفْرِ عَنْهُ لَا يَكُونُ كَافِرًا بَلْ يَكُونُ مُذْنِبًا حَيْثُ كَذَبَ فِي هَذِهِ الْحِكَايَةِ وَغُفْرَانُ الذَّنْبِ جَائِزٌ، فَلِهَذَا الْمَعْنَى: طَلَبَ الْمَغْفِرَةَ مِنَ اللَّه تَعَالَى، وَالثَّانِي: أَنَّهُ يَجُوزُ عَلَى مَذْهَبِنَا مِنَ اللَّه تَعَالَى أَنْ يُدْخِلَ الْكُفَّارَ الْجَنَّةَ وَأَنْ يُدْخِلَ الزُّهَّادَ وَالْعُبَّادَ النَّارَ، لِأَنَّ الْمُلْكَ مُلْكُهُ وَلَا اعْتِرَاضَ لِأَحَدٍ عَلَيْهِ، فَذَكَرَ عِيسَى هَذَا الْكَلَامَ وَمَقْصُودُهُ مِنْهُ تَفْوِيضُ الْأُمُورِ كُلِّهَا إِلَى اللَّه، وَتَرَكَ التَّعَرُّضَ وَالِاعْتِرَاضَ بِالْكُلِّيَّةِ، وَلِذَلِكَ خَتَمَ الْكَلَامَ بِقَوْلِهِ فَإِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ يَعْنِي أَنْتَ قَادِرٌ عَلَى مَا تُرِيدُ، حَكِيمٌ فِي كُلِّ مَا تَفْعَلُ لَا اعْتِرَاضَ لِأَحَدٍ عَلَيْكَ، فَمَنْ أَنَا وَالْخَوْضُ فِي أَحْوَالِ الرُّبُوبِيَّةِ، وَقَوْلُهُ إِنَّ اللَّه لَا يَغْفِرُ الشِّرْكَ فَنَقُولُ: إِنَّ غُفْرَانَهُ جَائِزٌ عِنْدَنَا، وَعِنْدَ جُمْهُورِ الْبَصْرِيِّينَ مِنَ الْمُعْتَزِلَةِ قَالُوا: لِأَنَّ الْعِقَابَ حَقُّ اللَّه عَلَى الْمُذْنِبِ وَفِي إِسْقَاطِهِ مَنْفَعَةٌ لِلْمُذْنِبِ، وَلَيْسَ فِي إِسْقَاطِهِ عَلَى اللَّه مَضَرَّةٌ، فَوَجَبَ أَنْ يَكُونَ حَسَنًا بَلْ دَلَّ الدَّلِيلُ السَّمْعِيُّ فِي شَرْعِنَا عَلَى أَنَّهُ لَا يَقَعُ، فَلَعَلَّ هَذَا الدَّلِيلَ السَّمْعِيَّ مَا كَانَ مَوْجُودًا فِي شَرْعِ عِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ.​

I'll leave it for the other brothers like Abu Hasan or Noori to translate and elaborate, but in short - time after time, these shameless mu3tazilite juhhal keep applying the same argument of 'Allah has power over all POSSIBILITIES' on His Own Dhaat & Sifaat. the passage is talking about Allah's Power over His slaves, and a discussion on the possibility, or lack thereof, of slaves entering hellfire!

Where does it even talk about Allah's Kalam, or to use zaleel's euphemism - "issue an untrue statement"? (deep down even that shaytan knows that by using the word "lie" he's going to turn people away from his dajjalic manhaj!)

the mardood deserves to be boycotted like the yahood and deserves a public belting to even THINK that this passage by Ar-Razi destroys Ahmad Rida Khan! pathetic & laughable!
 
Last edited:
الوجه الثالث: في الجواب أن القوم قَالُوا هَذَا الْكُفْرَ فَعِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ جَوَّزَ أَنْ يَكُونَ بَعْضُهُمْ قَدْ تَابَ عَنْهُ، فَقَالَ: إِنْ تُعَذِّبْهُمْ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ أُولَئِكَ الْمُعَذَّبِينَ مَاتُوا عَلَى الْكُفْرِ فَلَكَ أَنْ تُعَذِّبَهُمْ بِسَبَبِ أَنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ، وَأَنْتَ قَدْ حَكَمْتَ عَلَى كُلِّ مَنْ كَفَرَ مِنْ عِبَادِكَ بِالْعُقُوبَةِ، وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّهُمْ تَابُوا عَنِ الْكُفْرِ، وَأَنْتَ حَكَمْتَ عَلَى مَنْ تَابَ عَنِ الْكُفْرِ بِالْمَغْفِرَةِ.
الْوَجْهُ الرَّابِعُ: أَنَّا ذَكَرْنَا أَنَّ مِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ قَالَ: إِنَّ قَوْلَ اللَّه تَعَالَى لِعِيسَى أَأَنْتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّي إِلهَيْنِ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ [المائدة: 116] إِنَّمَا كَانَ عِنْدَ رَفْعِهِ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ لَا فِي يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ، وَعَلَى/ هَذَا الْقَوْلِ فَالْجَوَابُ سَهْلٌ لِأَنَّ قَوْلَهُ إِنْ تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبادُكَ يَعْنِي إِنْ تَوَفَّيْتَهُمْ عَلَى هَذَا الْكُفْرِ وَعَذَّبْتَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ فَلَكَ ذَاكَ، وَإِنْ أَخْرَجْتَهُمْ بِتَوْفِيقِكَ مِنْ ظُلْمَةِ الْكُفْرِ إِلَى نُورِ الْإِيمَانِ، وَغَفَرْتَ لَهُمْ مَا سَلَفَ مِنْهُمْ فَلَكَ أَيْضًا ذَاكَ وَعَلَى هَذَا التَّقْدِيرِ فَلَا إِشْكَالَ.
الْمَسْأَلَةُ الثَّانِيَةُ: احْتَجَّ بَعْضُ الْأَصْحَابِ بِهَذِهِ الْآيَةِ عَلَى شَفَاعَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي حَقِّ الْفُسَّاقِ قَالُوا: لِأَنَّ قَوْلَ عِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ إِنْ تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبادُكَ لَيْسَ فِي حَقِّ أَهْلِ الثَّوَابِ لِأَنَّ التَّعْذِيبَ لَا يَلِيقُ بِهِمْ، وَلَيْسَ أَيْضًا فِي حَقِّ الْكُفَّارِ لِأَنَّ قَوْلَهُ وَإِنْ تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ لَا يَلِيقُ بِهِمْ فَدَلَّ عَلَى أَنَّ ذَلِكَ لَيْسَ إِلَّا فِي حَقِّ الْفُسَّاقِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْإِيمَانِ. وَإِذَا ثَبَتَ شَفَاعَةُ الْفُسَّاقِ فِي حَقِّ عِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ ثَبَتَ فِي حَقِّ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِطَرِيقِ الْأَوْلَى لِأَنَّهُ لَا قَائِلَ بِالْفَصْلِ.
​
Further 2 paragraphs under the same verse, Imam Razi goes all the way to the Shafa3ah of the Prophet sal Allahu 3alaihi wa sallam!

the devbandi picks a line from his tafseer, strips it out of context, and shaytan leads him to "Allah can lie" wal 3eyadhu billah!
 
the zanadiqah try to cite something, which in their devilish minds is proof for their depraved filthy aqidah.
but they will ignore plain and explicit sentences and dance like monkeys to distract from this.

nowhere in the tafsir of this specific aayah does imam razi mention "kazib" or falsehood. yes, the word kadhaba is mentioned but not in reference to Allah ta'ala - unless the devbandi worships the jews who belied sayyiduna yisa alayhis salam!

maybe the imbecile who said this doesn't understand arabic - he should take classes from zameel. instead of attacking righteous ulama - tell the morons to learn to read. monkeys who cannot read trying to expound on aqidah by misquoting texts.

tfskbr v12p144.png



tfskbr v12p145.png
 
the only thing the devbandis care for is to exonerate their elders - even if it means to accuse Allah ta'ala of having a flaw.

us buray mazhab pay la'anat kijiey.

====
khayr.

if these zanadiqah had a grain of iman, and a fraction of the fervour they have to exonerate their elders - say 0.000001% of fervour to prove tanzih of Allah ta'ala, they would at least read a few pages, instead of screeching like a monkey who has snatched a banana.

-----

in surah al-an'aam, under the verse 115:

s6v115.png


tfskbr v13p168.png


in the second attribute he says:

tfskbr v13p169.png



the third issue: know that this aayah is proof that the Word of Allah ta'ala has many attributes.

...

the second attribute: among the attributes of the Words of Allah is that they are the Truth. the proof of this is that falsehood is a flaw and it is impossible for Allah ta'ala to have a flaw.

it is not valid to establish the belief that "falsehood is impossible for Allah ta'ala" by scriptural proof (dala'il al-sam'yiyyah) because the validity of the scripture is dependent on the premise that falsehood is impossible for Allah ta'ala.

if we used this evidence (i.e. scriptural proof) to establish that falsehood is impossible for Allah ta'ala (imtinaa ala Allah al-kadhib), it would result in circular reasoning and that is invalid.
​
===

so the devbandi methodology is to leave the explicit statements and cling to oblique references that may not even be proof in the first place.
 
in tafsir kabir under the verse 80 of surah baqarah:

s2v80.png



imam razi says that according to our ulama (i.e. ahl al-sunnah / ashayirah) falsehood is impossible because it is a flaw.
and
according to (later) mu'tazilah falsehood is ugly - and therefore it is impossible.

a devbandi is worse than later mu'tazilah.

====
vol.3 p.153

tfskbr v3p153.png



the fourth issue: Allah ta'ala says: "and Allah does not contravene His promise) PROVES that Allah sub'hanahu wa ta'ala is transcendent (munazzah) from falsehood in both his promises of reward (wa'ad) and punishment (wa'yeed).

our scholars [ashayirah/ahl al-sunnah] have said that falsehood is an attribute of flaw - and a flaw is impossible for Allah ta'ala.

the [later] mu'tazilah says that Allah sub'hanahu wa ta'ala knows about the ugliness of an ugly thing - and He Knows that He is free from it [that is from ugly things] ; and since faslehood is ugly - because it is falsehood [i.e. its ugliness is a universal truth] and the one who knows the ugliness of an ugly thing, and the fact that He is free from it - so it is impossible that He does an ugly thing. therefore falsehood from Allah taala is impossible.​

===
notice that later mu'tazilah also considered that falsehood is muhal - however the only difference between them and us (i.e. ahl al-sunnah) is that they deem it impossible because it is ugly; and we believe it is impossible because it is a flaw.

the devbandis are worse, and they follow the ancient mutazilah who say it is permissible for Allah ta'ala to lie.
 
Every response of Shaykh Abu Hasan should be posted as a reply to the original devbandi lie, whether it's Zameel or YouTube or x.
 
oh wait we are not done yet

alahazrat said that wahabi/devbandis are so stupid and shameless that they attempt to bring evidence from the very books that refute their fasid and filthy aqidah.
 
in the tafsir of surah saad verse 38:84, imam razi writes


tfskbr v26p235.png





Allah ta'ala has said to iblis: "then get out from (paradise) for you are accursed; and upon you is My damnation until judgement day" [surah hijr 34-35].

this is information (ikhbar) given by Allah ta'ala that he (i.e. iblis) will NEVER become a believer - because if he became a believer, the true information given by Allah ta'ala will be upended and become false - and THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE (muhaal).​


===
now devbandis will do all kinds of acrobatics to ignore explicit, plain statements - but will try to prove their stupid filthy heretical idea by clutching at straws - or burning strawmen.


alHamdulillah for protecting us from this shameless, faithless cult - i.e. the devbandi cult - because in this accursed cult, it is muhal for dihlawi and gangohi to be wrong - but it is not muHal for Allah ta'ala to lie. al-iyadhu billah.
 
Last edited:
and next is the citation from tafsir kabir which pulverises the house of devband, but the shameless heretics - well - have no shame.

even an israeli may accept this proof - but the devbandi so blind to the flaws of his own elders - will accuse Allah ta'ala of being able to lie, only to exonerate ismayil dihlawi and rashid gangohi.

laa Hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah.
 
surah nisaa v.87

s4v87.png



tfskbr v10p223.png


tfskbr v10p224.png


the sixth issue: Allah ta'ala has said: "who is more truthful than Allah?"

the interrogative (istifham) is meant to negate (i.e. it means: there is no one more truthful than Allah).

the objective of this is the declaration that it is necessary for Allah ta'ala to be truthful (wajib) and that falsehood and contravening a promise (khulf) in his speech are impossible (muhaal).

as for the mu'tazilah, they presented evidence according to their principles - that is - Allah ta'ala knows that falsehood is ugly; and knows that He is free from it (i.e. He does not have to resort to lie) - and anyone who is like this, then falsehood is impossible for him.

...
... [the mutazilah argument on why falsehood is muhal based on their principles]
...

as for our scholars, their proof is that if He were a liar, His falsehood would be pre-eternal [qadim]

and if His falsehood was pre-eternal, then it would be impossible for His falsehood to perish - because that which is pre-eternal [qadim] cannot be annihilated [`adam].

and if His falsehood was impossible to perish [zawal] since pre-eternity, then it would be impossible for Him to be truthful. because, the presence of one of the mutually opposite things necessitates the absence of the other.

and if He was false, it would be impossible for Him to be truthful - but this (latter thing) is not impossible

because, we know by necessity that anyone who knows about a thing - then it is not impossible for him to say that which is according to the [truth] of the thing that he has to speak about. this is known by necessity [i.e. spontaneously known to be true].

thus, when the possibility of truth exists, then inevitably the impossibility of falsehood is a given.

thus it is definitively established that Allah - Exalted is He - is Truthful.​
 
i have cited six instances from imam razi's tafsir where he explicitly says that kazib is muhal.
i can cite sixteen other instances (in sha'Allah) where imam razi says: 'kazib is muhal' starting right from the beginning of his tafsir.

quoted so far:

surah al-an'aam, 6:115:

surah baqarah, 2:80

surah mariyam, 19:34

surah yunus 10:34

surah saad 38:84

surah nisaa 4:87​

====

in sha'Allah
 
Last edited:
Do such people still exist who expect truth from the ones who believe their god can lie? Or expect true statements from the ones who believe their god issues untrue statements? Why should such a man strive for truth if his god may be untrue?

It is strange that people continue to even entertain filthy individuals such as zaleel.
 
abu Hasan said:
surah nisaa v.87

View attachment 10886


View attachment 10888

View attachment 10887

the sixth issue: Allah ta'ala has said: "who is more truthful than Allah?"

the interrogative (istifham) is meant to negate (i.e. it means: there is no one more truthful than Allah).

the objective of this is the declaration that it is necessary for Allah ta'ala to be truthful (wajib) and that falsehood and contravening a promise (khulf) in his speech are impossible (muhaal).

as for the mu'tazilah, they presented evidence according to their principles - that is - Allah ta'ala knows that falsehood is ugly; and knows that He is free from it (i.e. He does not have to resort to lie) - and anyone who is like this, then falsehood is impossible for him.

...
... [the mutazilah argument on why falsehood is muhal based on their principles]
...

as for our scholars, their proof is that if He were a liar, His falsehood would be pre-eternal [qadim]

and if His falsehood was pre-eternal, then it would be impossible for His falsehood to perish - because that which is pre-eternal [qadim] cannot be annihilated [`adam].

and if His falsehood was impossible to perish [zawal] since pre-eternity, then it would be impossible for Him to be truthful. because, the presence of one of the mutually opposite things necessitates the absence of the other.

and if He was false, it would be impossible for Him to be truthful - but this (latter thing) is not impossible

because, we know by necessity that anyone who knows about a thing - then it is not impossible for him to say that which is according to the [truth] of the thing that he has to speak about. this is known by necessity [i.e. spontaneously known to be true].

thus, when the possibility of truth exists, then inevitably the impossibility of falsehood is a given.

thus it is definitively established that Allah - Exalted is He - is Truthful.​
Click to expand...

The fact that imam Al Razi outlines his rationale behind falsehood being muhal is very useful- as otherwise the deos would be claiming that muhal here has a different meaning to muhal elsewhere
 
Khanah said:
The fact that imam Al Razi outlines his rationale behind falsehood being muhal is very useful-
Click to expand...
alahazrat's seminal work on this subject: sub'han al-subbuh is among the finest on the topic. half of it was translated 15 years ago, and then i got busy with other releases. in sha'Allah will have to restart the project.

[update: i just opened the draft and saw this]

sus p2.png



---
a lot of water has flowed under the bridge ever since. need to write a third preface.
 
Last edited:
abu Hasan said:
alahazrat's seminal work on this subject: sub'han al-subbuh is among the finest on the topic. half of it was translated 15 years ago, and then i got busy with other releases. in sha'Allah will have to restart the project.

[update: i just opened the draft and saw this]

View attachment 10889


---
a lot of water has flowed under the bridge ever since. need to write a third preface.
Click to expand...

May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala grant you himmah and aafiyah, ameen.
 
Back
Top