Changing letters, changing meanings
- Thread starter Aqdas
- Start date
قلب heart
كلب dog
ش
س
I was shocked to hear people using س for ش in Urdu and Arabic words in naats and awrad during this year's Mawlid - mainly memons, with due respect.
A lot of people don't realize that for awrad and wazaif to "work", crystal clear utterance of the makharij along with a deep focus are conditions.
Improper makharij, or mentally drafting work emails or your mind wandering off to the pizza at the mosque to some youtube video and so on are killers. (we desis are big time wazaif enthusiasts who have a wazifa for everything from passing your 10th std boards to having a baby to getting a pay raise to anything else - and we fumble in these two things as much as we are enthusiastic)
كلب dog
ش
س
I was shocked to hear people using س for ش in Urdu and Arabic words in naats and awrad during this year's Mawlid - mainly memons, with due respect.
A lot of people don't realize that for awrad and wazaif to "work", crystal clear utterance of the makharij along with a deep focus are conditions.
Improper makharij, or mentally drafting work emails or your mind wandering off to the pizza at the mosque to some youtube video and so on are killers. (we desis are big time wazaif enthusiasts who have a wazifa for everything from passing your 10th std boards to having a baby to getting a pay raise to anything else - and we fumble in these two things as much as we are enthusiastic)
Ism al jalalah being the prime example.
abu Hasan
Administrator
down south (i.e. india) it is a pandemic with ق
hyderabad and below convert ق to خ
so it is mushtakh (مشتاق), khayamat (), kheemat (قيمت), khabool (قبول), khuraan (i.e. قرآن. go figure), khasim (قاسم), khabar (no difference between قبر and خبر ) khabiliyat (قابليت), khaari (قاري) saab
.
khasam (قسم) say. خصم has a different meaning. (qasam=oath; khasam=opponent)
hyderabad and below convert ق to خ
so it is mushtakh (مشتاق), khayamat (), kheemat (قيمت), khabool (قبول), khuraan (i.e. قرآن. go figure), khasim (قاسم), khabar (no difference between قبر and خبر ) khabiliyat (قابليت), khaari (قاري) saab
.khasam (قسم) say. خصم has a different meaning. (qasam=oath; khasam=opponent)
abu Hasan
Administrator
add the southern khalb خلب variant.
خلب khalb is the masdar of khalaba, meaning to catch with claws/talons.
dhu mikhlab - a bird with talons; one of the conditions that renders the class of birds haram to eat: birds with talons.
A lot of Punjabis couldn't care less for differentiation between fathah/zabar and kasrah/zer
Malik (king) and malak (angel) are two different things, guys!
Even that so called mufti, the clown neefa qureshi says Musannif Ibn Abi Shaybah.
Kids need to be taught to say the ه in the Ism Al Jalalah الله at all costs, they shouldn't be made to move ahead in the Qaidah if they don't get this right. (we ranted abt this in the Ashraf Jalali thread)
Even zakir nalayaq says "Alla"
Plus the desi disease so many muazzins and imams too suffer from
The thick pronunciation of ل in الله if preceded by fathah/zabar or dammah/pesh... and thin pronunciation if preceded by kasrah/zer.
Much like the desi damn care attitude with V and W.... if you hear a desi say tu saaheen hai basera kar paharhon ki chattanon mein, and your eyes get wery wery vatery, just remember it's not something to fall in lowe with!
----
In the past I had spoken about soft or implicit Sunni dawah, and trojan horses (as opposed to point blank radd that we excel in)
Mashallah some Barelwi imams in my area read with proper and excellent tajweed, and I have personally heard deobandi common folk say they have prayed at such and such mosque and the imam's recitation was beautiful and that they like to go to those mosques... I have seen Arab (Sunnis as well as all rounders*) shuyukh respect them and visit their gatherings and so on.
So yes, excellence WILL get noticed, and these "elementary" skills too WILL help you in propagating Sunniyat. Hamdulillah I do see the younger crop of Sunni ulama like Asrar Rashid, Shahid Ali, Monawwar Ateeq et al focus on these soft skills of fluent local dialect English, proper tajweed, talking about knowledge of deen above and beyond lashing out at devbandis or magnificent karaamaat, focusing on socio-political issues like Palestine, lgbt, drugs, dating, social media, AI and so on (it might be my limited viewing but I think Asrar Rashid is head and shoulders above the rest)
* it's common to find Arab shaykhs who will respect ibn Taymiyyah but also respect Asharis and attend Mawlids and so on
Malik (king) and malak (angel) are two different things, guys!
Even that so called mufti, the clown neefa qureshi says Musannif Ibn Abi Shaybah.
Kids need to be taught to say the ه in the Ism Al Jalalah الله at all costs, they shouldn't be made to move ahead in the Qaidah if they don't get this right. (we ranted abt this in the Ashraf Jalali thread)
Even zakir nalayaq says "Alla"
Plus the desi disease so many muazzins and imams too suffer from
The thick pronunciation of ل in الله if preceded by fathah/zabar or dammah/pesh... and thin pronunciation if preceded by kasrah/zer.
Much like the desi damn care attitude with V and W.... if you hear a desi say tu saaheen hai basera kar paharhon ki chattanon mein, and your eyes get wery wery vatery, just remember it's not something to fall in lowe with!
----
In the past I had spoken about soft or implicit Sunni dawah, and trojan horses (as opposed to point blank radd that we excel in)
Mashallah some Barelwi imams in my area read with proper and excellent tajweed, and I have personally heard deobandi common folk say they have prayed at such and such mosque and the imam's recitation was beautiful and that they like to go to those mosques... I have seen Arab (Sunnis as well as all rounders*) shuyukh respect them and visit their gatherings and so on.
So yes, excellence WILL get noticed, and these "elementary" skills too WILL help you in propagating Sunniyat. Hamdulillah I do see the younger crop of Sunni ulama like Asrar Rashid, Shahid Ali, Monawwar Ateeq et al focus on these soft skills of fluent local dialect English, proper tajweed, talking about knowledge of deen above and beyond lashing out at devbandis or magnificent karaamaat, focusing on socio-political issues like Palestine, lgbt, drugs, dating, social media, AI and so on (it might be my limited viewing but I think Asrar Rashid is head and shoulders above the rest)
* it's common to find Arab shaykhs who will respect ibn Taymiyyah but also respect Asharis and attend Mawlids and so on
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i'd go out on a limb and say most desis don't know the proper pronunciation of و
و is pronounced like wow, not vow
ولد is walad, not valad!
abu Hasan
Administrator
zakir not only has crude and ignorant pronunciation of arabic words - he also has an irritating english accent. and the lisp and the tone.
yet he is a celebrity. weird world.
Wazaaif Parhne Ke Bawajood Asar Kyun Nahi Karte? | Wazifa Kyun Asar Nhi Krta? | Syed Ghulam Dastagir - YouTube
In the linked video, Syed Ghulam Dastagir mentions "be-yaqeeni (uncertainty)" as the #1 reason why wazaif don't "work" for the majority of people, alongside shortcomings in fulfilling the faraidh, bad character, sins of the tongue, and understanding what you are actually reading.
What I don't understand is: OK, the common person doesn't know anything about tajweed as they haven't really come across it and if anything, they would assume they read correctly because they've learnt from the imam of the masjid etc.
But as for the scholars who pronounce words completely incorrectly- what actually gets taught to them when studying in a dars nizami setting? Genuine question because I've never been there. For example, I understand there may be a basic study of tajweed at an early level but surely they would identify that their pronunciation is incorrect at that level? If we take the following letters:
ث and س
The letter ث is pronounced by having the tip of the tongue touch the bottom of the upper front teeth. If you try and pronounce this letter from that position, it's physically impossible to pronounce a س. So how do they continuously make this mistake, wouldn't they identify this early on in any tajweed class?
The same goes for the following letters:
ظ ذ ز
If you pronounce the ذ and ظ from the same position, it is physically impossible to make the sound of ز. It just can't be done.
So when they study this or see it written in books... What is running through their mind exactly? It's one thing to attempt to pronounce the correct letter by using the correct points/position of articulation and still failing due to other factors but it seems people don't even do that, yet they are muftis and the like so how does that failure actually happen? Or is it that they don't study tajweed at all in those programmes?
But as for the scholars who pronounce words completely incorrectly- what actually gets taught to them when studying in a dars nizami setting? Genuine question because I've never been there. For example, I understand there may be a basic study of tajweed at an early level but surely they would identify that their pronunciation is incorrect at that level? If we take the following letters:
ث and س
The letter ث is pronounced by having the tip of the tongue touch the bottom of the upper front teeth. If you try and pronounce this letter from that position, it's physically impossible to pronounce a س. So how do they continuously make this mistake, wouldn't they identify this early on in any tajweed class?
The same goes for the following letters:
ظ ذ ز
If you pronounce the ذ and ظ from the same position, it is physically impossible to make the sound of ز. It just can't be done.
So when they study this or see it written in books... What is running through their mind exactly? It's one thing to attempt to pronounce the correct letter by using the correct points/position of articulation and still failing due to other factors but it seems people don't even do that, yet they are muftis and the like so how does that failure actually happen? Or is it that they don't study tajweed at all in those programmes?
I've been told by descendants of Sadrush Shariah that Ala Hazrat had appointed Sadrush Shariah to take exams of prospective pesh imams, for tajweed and recitation, and only if someone recited properly and was given a green light by Sadrush Shariah, Ala Hazrat too would approve of him to lead the namaz. (Don't remember the conversation well now, but maybe even cross examine them on basic Sunni aqaid)
Dunno exactly where and how we lost the way in this department.
These days it's all about ego trips. Just try taking up a mawlana on his tajweed, or try asking him re his position on Ameer Mu3awiyah radi Allahu 3anhu. Yet everyone wants to be given 4 lbs worth of titles, and wants to walk into a mehfil 45 minutes after the program starts, amid chants of Naarae Takbeer and Ulamae Ahle Sunnat Zindabad, with people flocking to kiss their hands!
And I patently don't buy this rubbish excuse of "but we're 3ajaim, it's not our mother tongue". If the devbandis and wahabis from our part of the world can recite full well with makharij and tajweed rules, then we should be doing even better than them.
Aside - in my neck of the woods, it's a pleasure to see more and more kids of Sunnis recite with proper tajweed, but devbandis (real or perceived) are still better than us (desi context).
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