Shaykh Asrar reply to Mufti Qasim Zia on Pirs
- Thread starter Aqdas
- Start date
Tbh, I've always disliked the pir and even molwi culture where unqualified people are accorded the mantle.
I think it's a brilliant move by Shaykh Asrar that finally, these things are publicly and officially being called out and unqualified people are being called out too.
Yes, it's been talked about for decades but never like this. It's been a bit hush hush but now Shaykh Asrar has made it public and mainstream and Sunnis need to get behind him and create a movement: no fake/unqualified people wanted. End naat culture too.
The naat industry, yes, industry, is very shiah-fied. And ulama need to come out now and end the tafzili fitnah in the UK too. Clean up Sunni stages.
I think it's a brilliant move by Shaykh Asrar that finally, these things are publicly and officially being called out and unqualified people are being called out too.
Yes, it's been talked about for decades but never like this. It's been a bit hush hush but now Shaykh Asrar has made it public and mainstream and Sunnis need to get behind him and create a movement: no fake/unqualified people wanted. End naat culture too.
The naat industry, yes, industry, is very shiah-fied. And ulama need to come out now and end the tafzili fitnah in the UK too. Clean up Sunni stages.
A few places in Fatawa Ridawiyyah that mention a pir needing to be an aalim:
First:
اگرپیرسنی صحیح العقیدہ عالم ہے اور اس کاسلسلہ متصل ہے اورفاسق نہیں تو اس سے دل رجوع نہ ہوناشیطانی وسوسہ ہے
Second:
دوسری شرط فقہ کااتنا علم کہ اپنی حاجت کے سب مسائل جانتاہو اورحاجت جدید پیش آئے تواس کاحکم کتاب سے نکال سکے۔بغیر اس کے اورفنون کاکتناہی بڑا عالم ہو عالم نہیں۔
First:
اگرپیرسنی صحیح العقیدہ عالم ہے اور اس کاسلسلہ متصل ہے اورفاسق نہیں تو اس سے دل رجوع نہ ہوناشیطانی وسوسہ ہے
Second:
دوسری شرط فقہ کااتنا علم کہ اپنی حاجت کے سب مسائل جانتاہو اورحاجت جدید پیش آئے تواس کاحکم کتاب سے نکال سکے۔بغیر اس کے اورفنون کاکتناہی بڑا عالم ہو عالم نہیں۔
@Aqdas i guess he was emphasizing on the "formal" part of being an aalim, as in having attended a dastaarbandi at a seminary or something.
i don't know where this Zia saab went to school to be a mufti but he's being a try-hard for no good reason
seriously mufti saab, it doesn't befit your status to hinge on a mere example. the point is that a peer should be able to refer to such kind of books, be it Radd Al-Muhtar or Mabsoot or so on.
these kind of arguments should be given to wahabis - if following Sahih Bukhari is so important, the sahaba would be considered as non-followers of it (wal 3eyadhu billah)!
same mindset. why stop at Arabs who don't know prayers? there are Arab christians and jews too. the point is that a peer should know Arabic of deen to understand deen
besides, the fuqahaa have said (and Ala Hazrat has cited too) that an Arab non-scholar is equal to a non-Arab scholar. please look up the ruling!
you can't downplay the importance of Arabic language in Islam. period.
we can and should unite at the community front. but that doesn't mean let fake peers get away with making a mockery of deen.
besides, it also might be a good idea to keep a logbook of which peer has done what in rebutting the war against Islam by kuffar and hypocrite regimes.
Just a side note - if we were to zoom out and look at the Barelwi environment from the outside as an observer - it should be no surprise to anyone why people are distancing themselves from Ala Hazrat and they're looking elsewhere. The environment in Barelvi communities is soul crushing and toxic. Pir culture, constant infighting, lack of education, perpetual refutation, being stuck on issues from 50 years ago, lack of English material etc... I can go on and on. We need serious reform. And I know I'll get hate for this comment but 95 percent of the awaam don't care about this. They want to learn about Tafsir, Hadith, Seerah, Arabic etc... they want something uplifting that connects them to their deen, not what's happening right now.
Not really. 95% of the awaam could get all of that if they bothered looking for it. Even the ones who want to learn love refutation culture really. They'll be lapping up refutations between the YouTube dawah guys... They just like refutations on different areas. They certainly loved the refutation of chuff chuff but it's not like that was some kind of academic paper or something. Can't blame the scholars for the apathy, lack of intelligence, lack of motivation and short attention span of the public. We get the scholars we deserve and the YouTube dawah crew we deserve and the political leaders we deserve. I believe they're all a form of punishment in the dunya
If we don't like this fatwa and the poor quality of reasoning found therein, it's our own fault we don't produce better ones
If we don't like this fatwa and the poor quality of reasoning found therein, it's our own fault we don't produce better ones
And this is an even bigger problem - refusing to even acknowledge that you even have a problem. You need to look at the reality on the ground. But no point wasting my time, I've said this a hundred times to no avail.
Abu Fayz
sunniport user
Point of note, Shaykh Asrar is Bay'ah to Maulana Ilyas Qadri, he is his Murshid Kareem.
not really - other than the "formal" education part, he has no need to be "exonerated".
other than that, where has Mawlana Ilyas run a peer shop gathering nazranas, or doing chuff, or supporting tafdiliism, or speaking against Ameer Mu3awiyah radi Allahu 3anhu, or supporting dodgy personalities etc.? of course, operationally DI is not above criticism, but they haven't sold out Sunnis or Sunniism. quite the contrary, they've endeavored to protect Sunniism among Sunnis.
Mawlana Ilyas has said himself he's not been through the Darse Nizami system. that doesn't mean he doesn't know his aqidah or fiqh. not too sure about the Arabic language part and reading fiqh manuals in Arabic, but i'd hazard a guess he wouldn't be too far off on that either. (feel free to disagree, this is just my understanding based on my observation)
bro, if you put it like that, then awaam could get anything else too if they bothered to look for it - including naatkhwanis. why should maulwi hazraat even bother with anything other than 5 daily prayers, and that too, only because it's a requirement to pray in jamaat!
yes, i can vouch even the wahabis are like that - every place in the west that i've seen.
the key differentiator, however, is that they have refutation of "qubooriyyeen" and "soofees" hand in hand with wahabi "education" as well as contemporary issues (Muslim relevant politics, bitcoin, discrimination, far right shenanigans, lgbt, media etc.) AND outreach to one and all, wahabi and non-wahabi and non-Muslim alike
we, on the other hand, as @Hassan_0123 said in post#7. like it or not, despite being immensely unapologetic about ourselves or our manhaj, we operate like a cult and are very insular on many fronts!
societally, we damn care of pulling people into Sunniyat (forget about dawah outreach to kuffar, that was something meant for 1400 yrs ago)
ethnically - with other non-desi Sunnis - not too sure how much we mingle with them. wahabis make sure they are inclusive of all ethnicities. to be fair, even Sunnis of other ethnicities don't jump up and down like monkeys like wahabis. Turks, Bosnians, Malay etc. Sunnis stick to their own too, but of course are hospitable and generous with other ethnicities. Arabs of course are an exception for the reason of being the federal/central ethnicity of Islam.
youf - every man for himself, buddy! ask Allah by the waseela of Ghawthe Aazam and figure it out for yourself. you'll be alright! the peer/mawlana saab's inner circle of 50+ graying unkils will show no mercy to the firangi language. it was your parent's fault they didn't teach it to you. go decipher Bahare Shariat on your own, and we also expect you to fully comprehend all the naats you've ever heard in your life, sway your arms and scream Subhan Allah every 5 minutes in every gathering you attend!
then the peer & mureed politics, not counting the professional mischief making by closet rafidis pretending to be Sunnis
---
i think Sunnis need to define their vision, mission, and value statements.
vision - inspiration and ideal aspired to
mission - practical purpose to be achieved
values - behavior patterns, can be replaced or overlap with goals & objectives too
these will/should dictate our modus operandi quite effectively. let's start with DI's tagline as a vision statement
vision - mujhe apni aur saari duniya ke logon ki islaah ki koshish karni hai
but this can lead to 3 distinctly different missions and each will dictate its own set of values or goals
1. keeping Sunnis Sunni
2. taking Sunniyat to non-Sunnis
3. taking Islam to nonMuslims
as we have seen time and again, time and again with multiple people (DI or not), short sighted folks will generously directly impute sulh kulliyat or imply it - should someone like Asrar Rashid work towards 2 or 3
incidentally, DI was formed with a mission overlapping between 1 & 2 - namely - to counter the effect of the devbandi tableeghi jamaat
also, imho, while in principle, all these 3 are distinctly different missions - thanks to social media - any and every one of us will invariably be dragged into all 3 at various different points in time. in terms of everything mixing up uncontrollably, things are totally different even from the 1980's and 1990's.
our values & behavior patterns - for the most part - naarae Takbeer, naarae Risalat, naarae Tahqeeq, naarae Hyderi, naarae Ghausiya, ulamae Ahle Sunnat, naatkhwani, narration of karaamaat, radd of devbandi tawagheet (academic or parking lot version), langar, rooh afza sharbat with baadaam - please forgive me if i missed something
so yeah, every Sunni org, mawlana, seminary, peer saab etc. defining their own vision, mission & value statements would be a good starting point.
abu Hasan
Administrator
first thing to phase out is "naarah baazi". while takbir is sunnah, other naaras can be suppressed keeping in line with the times.
and then the rest of the controversies around naarahs chaar-yar, panch-yar, sab-yar, hyderi, etc. will be doused without the oxygen they crave.
Allah knows best.
and then the rest of the controversies around naarahs chaar-yar, panch-yar, sab-yar, hyderi, etc. will be doused without the oxygen they crave.
Allah knows best.
I disagree.
Naara e Risalat to differentiate from wahabis. That's the minimum. Maybe you have a point about the rest. I dunno.
But now that closet shiah have opposed char yar, naara e tahqiq isn't amiss.
brother, we are all on the same page. the keywords here are:
historically (our parents/grandparents times) and/or back home (desi lands) naarah's might have been/are efficient vehicles for Sunniyat.
the question is - what about the here (western desi context) and the now (our times, especially focusing on the youth demographic of <35 yrs)?
i believe the outer shell of the naarah, despite truthfulness, simply can't function as an efficient carrier of Sunniyat. the mehfil has to spell the internal substance of the naarah and Sunniyat itself, in details comprehensible to the youth - something you're all for.
it's about form vs function.
for example:
ok, but what would that do to counter the minhajis and closet rawafid?
---
related aside - again, which Muslim will have antagonism towards saying Subhan Allah?
recently (25 dec) i attended a gathering where 2 young Maktabatul Madina grads (probably early 20s) gave an english speech on Sayyiduna 3isa 3alaihis salam and trinity being kufr and so on... for the benefit of the youth. people listened and appreciated it too, ie, listened attentively.
then comes the middle aged guest speaker, a respected mufti saab for his Urdu speech, and he goes something like - in dono naujawan ulama ne tarikh ki nisbat se english mein behtreen bayan diya. kya aap log inki himmat aur hausla buland karne ki khatir Subhan Allah keh ke daad nahin de sakte thay? chaliye, ab keh dijiye!
i was somewhat annoyed at that. and internally i was like - mufti saab, kyun bachchon ko bigaad rahe hain? why you wanna make big-headed peers out of these poor new grad ulama?
my unashamed stance:
of course we all need to remember and praise Allah. that's why we have halaqas of dhikr.
but are our peers and khateebs and muftis so insecure or in need of sycophancy that they need to verbally ask for appreciation from the audience. how many mehfils have we all sat in where the khateeb saab makes a self-appraisingly brilliant point himself or narrates a past elder's brilliant point and says - ZOR SE BOLO SUBHAN ALLAH.
naatkhwans are worse - haath utha ke mere sath padho; jhoom ke padho; zor zor se Subhan Allah ki aawaazein aati rehni chahiye! recently someone even posted some naatkhwan asking for everyone swaying their hands holding their mobiles with the lights on!
any Subhan Allah, Ma Sha Allah, or Alhamdulillah that comes out from the audience during a speech or naat MUST BE unsolicited and organic!
Allah knows best.