Haydar, Haydar, Haydar

[Aqdas]

Yes, this new trend amongst "Sunnis" of repeating Haydari half a dozen times is a hallmark of shiah.

Or shouting: Haydar, Haydar, Haydar, Haydar.

Our belief is that whoever doesn't accept Mawla Ali رضي الله عنه as the fourth caliph and fourth greatest companion is a deviant.

No one who has enmity for him can enter jannah.

I dislike when people only pronounce Haq Char Yar without Haydari. That's the type of Sunni I am and that's my love for my master, Ali.

But that doesn't mean exaggeration and imitation of shiah.

I know this will rile up closet shiah in the UK and the subcontinent but so be it.

Sunnis are people of moderation and the middle path. Yes, we say Haq Char Yar and Haydari but this aggressive repetition is not our way.

Think of it this way: you said Haq Char Yar, right? Did you repeat Siddiqi, Faruqi, Uthmani? But you are doing so for Haydari. And this is ghuluww and tashabbuh.

And some don't even say Haq Char Yar! They only repeat Haydar, Haydar.

And if you've got a problem with my post, speak to Irfan Shah whose clip says the same.

---
Now someone will ask: if you've done Haq Char Yar, why even say Haydari once?

Reply: it's to refute nasibis who might accept Mawla Ali as the fourth caliph but bear enmity towards him.

 

[Aqdas]

Irfan Shah video: https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1EcEGxykcr/

 

[Aqdas]

Again, happy to be corrected. I could have got this wrong but for me, it doesn't quite sit right.

It feeds the tafdili narrative.

 

[Unbeknown]

how about moving past all narahs?

sorry but I just never understood narahs at all. Tasbeeh, durud are enough I guess.

Now this narah competition is still more baffling for me.

Allah knows best.

Happy to be corrected as well.

 

[Aqdas]

Slogans come based on the type of speech. Fiery desi speeches invite naarahs. In fact, some speakers know how to deliver something so that naarahs ensue. For many desi ulama and awaam, the number of naarahs shows how good a speech was.

Whereas if you have a lecture, like Shaykh Asrar, there's no place for naarahs.

So I'm not sure they'll stop for Urdu speeches and amongst desi folk but for western audiences, they're far less frequent.

Wahabis are quite passionate with slogans of Takbir, even in the West.

 

[AbdalQadir]

Wahabis are quite passionate with slogans of Takbir, even in the West.

Bhai, Takbir is necessary for Muslims.

Maybe in our own lifetimes, in pre-tahir times Ya RasulAllah would be a necessary 2nd to distinguish ourselves from wahabis and devbandis.

Now even tafdilis and perennialists use the Ya RasulAllah naara. They are such shameless beghayrat lowlives that they will badmouth Ala Hazrat and still shamelessly recite Salame Raza in their mehfils.

For many desi ulama and awaam,

I get it you're talking about back home, and given the size of the population and all the politics going on there between ulama, awaam, naatkhwans, businessmen, politicians etc. - i see how any serious reform remains a pipe dream, dunno what the answers are and who has them!

 

[Aqdas]

Bhai, Takbir is necessary for Muslims.

Ofc. My point was, even they have loud slogans.

Point of the thread was, are we allowing tafdilism to creep in?

If we are, it's nothing new. Shiah have managed to infiltrate Sunnis for decades with no mention of Imam Hasan رضي الله عنه, shiah poetry on our stages, speaking against Amir Muawiyah رضي الله عنه, Das bibiyon ki kahani, etc.

So I feel this new trend of Haydar, Haydar should be challenged now.

 

[AbdalQadir]

loud slogans.

i stand to be corrected, but i don't think we can classify Takbir as a slogan, per se.

I feel this new trend of Haydar, Haydar should be challenged now.

i'm with you but my point is and i'm assuming unbeknown's as well - how & when do we move past the slogan and counter-slogan and counter-counter-slogan etc. into actual knowledge based substance?

 

[Aqdas]

how & when do we move past the slogan and counter-slogan and counter-counter-slogan etc. into actual knowledge based substance?

With people like Shaykh Asrar. He doesn't even do speeches for naarahs. Not looking to impress the crowd or ulama. Just delivering knowledge.

When our molwis move past tarannum and fiery speeches and replace it with knowledge, naarahs will get less.

Naarahs are mostly desi culture. As people move away from Urdu, they'll get less.

 

[Nissaar]

Why is it that whenever it comes to the Ahlul Bayt, we as Sunnis always try to find something to limit? Be it slogans, be it poetry, be it love, be it mention ?

This is a genuine question. It seems as if we are obligated to mention the Sahaaba when we are mentionning the Ahlul Bayt.

When Ali is mentionned, Someone will mention Muawiya may Allah be pleased with them all.

This is not only about Naarah but also about Manqabat, Speech, etc... In some Mehfils, we read Manqabat of Ghaus, Khwaja, Ala Hazrat etc... It is deemed as normal
But if we read for Ali we are afraid to be labelled Shia.

I would love to have Manqabat about Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Faatimah, Hassan and Hussein may Allah be pleased with them all.

Some even do Yawm E Muawiya, which technically is fine, but why not for the 10 promised ones ?

Mentionning one does not mean demeening the others.

 

[Aqdas]

Some even do Yawm E Muawiya, which technically is fine, but why not for the 10 promised ones ?

Maybe you've let the cat out the bag...

 

[abu Hasan]

Why is it that whenever it comes to the Ahlul Bayt, we as Sunnis always try to find something to limit? Be it slogans, be it poetry, be it love, be it mention ?

this is whining.

if you notice aqdas suggested we can do away with all the slogans - and i am of the opinion too.
takbir, as AQ has also noted, has a basis in the sunnah, but it can be softly said in the masjid.

shouting slogans - like war cries - in the masjid are extremely off-putting and i consider it disliked in the masjid as it violates the decorum due in the masjid. unfortunately, people shout slogans praising present scholars or recently deceased, in addition to the mention of sahabah.

one of the signs of final days mentioned in a hadith is that: 'noises heard in the masjid' - this can be interpreted in many ways: the loudspeakers themselves. the various noises as ringtones - some are songs and music - going off in the masjid, or people shouting. wAllahu a'alam.

earlier ulama interpreted it as: "people raising their voices in the masjid".


--
the hadith - and imam bukhari titled the topic: 'raising voices in the masjid'

in bukhari is a hadith that sayyiduna umar raDi'Allahu saw two men speaking loudly and asked them where were they from; when they said they had come from ta'if, he said: "if you were locals, i would have punished you for raising your voices in the masjid of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam".

while some ulama such as imam malik interpreted it as absolute - that is, raising voices in the masjid is absolutely impermissible. whereas others permitted it for valid purposes - such as takbir (to convey the imam's takbirs in the absence of loudspeakers).

however, this pandemonium encouraged by speakers, naat khwans and - people shouting in the masjid - i doubt anyone would allow it. this also applies to the loud salams after fajr and after juma prayer.

related posts:

Post in thread 'imam ahmad raza and the challenges of today'

Sep 8, 2008

My greatest problem that i do not have any reading materials on the Imam you love and respect so dearly.

we have a whole section dedicated on this forum for that purpose. please feel free to browse and ask.

--

One expierence i had is that i was labelled a Wahaabi for not reciting his poetry after Jum'ah.

this practice prevalent in the subcontinent was frowned upon by alahazrat. alahazrat insisted that it is not permissible to recite qur'an loudly in the masjid if it disturbs others who are praying or people who are sleeping (in the masjid like...

• abu Hasan

• 

I

Post in thread 'Etiquettes of salat o salam and loud zikr'

Jul 15, 2024

just on the topic of permissibility itself, that debate is as old as tasawwuf itself - there are genuine mutasawwifeen (ulama of past, not current) who say loud zikr is not allowed regardless of time and place, and yet there are others who say loud zikr is the way to go. of course those who believe in loud zikr to be permissible will have no choice but to also consider other things like time and place, and etiquette - which you have asked here


some amount of swaying is a reactionary body reflex when you read or chant. you will see people doing it while reading Quran too, and kids in...

• Ibby AH

Post in thread 'salat-o-salam immediately after jumu'ah'

Aug 5, 2011

I would like to know the opinions based on rulings of Ala Hazrat regarding the loud salams recited in Faizane Madina in Karachi during the Ramadan I3tikaf, and the Madani Muzakara's inside the mosque and all.

As I know they have set a timetable for different activities or hold the Madani Muzakarat and Salat-o-Salam in other areas of the mosque, separate to where people pray nawafil etc.

In such a circumstance, can it be considered as permitted for the sake of maslaha, for they call people away from lahw-wa-la3ib towards religion?

The reason I ask is because the DI brothers are strict...

• AbdalQadir

 

[AbdalQadir]

But if we read for Ali we are afraid to be labelled Shia.

that's because Mawla Ali's radi Allahu 3anhu case is different than the rest of the sahaba, and he has himself narrated it, and as we all know from our societies:

as a lot of desi Sunnis are not involved in dawah work with western nonMuslims, a lot of wahabis when they make the nonMuslim take shahadah and become Muslim, ask him to extend the shahadah - ash-hadu an la ilaha il Allahu wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 3abduhu wa rasuluhu wa ash-hadu anna 3isa 3abdullahi wa rasuluhu (3alaihimus salam) to specifically negate the past creed of christianity

Some even do Yawm E Muawiya, which technically is fine, but why not for the 10 promised ones ?

"teachnically"?!

let's raise that bar further - you have a3raas of awliyaa like Hazrat Ghaus Pak, or Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti and other radi Allahu 3anhum. so many Sunnis wouldn't be caught dead not attending the 3urs of a famous wali.

do they even know the a3ras of ALL the Badri sahaba?

are all the awliyaa combined greater than any sahabi, be they of the 10 promised ones or not? there were around 124,000 sahaba +/-

 

[Nissaar]

this is whining.

if you notice aqdas suggested we can do away with all the slogans - and i am of the opinion too.
takbir, as AQ has also noted, has a basis in the sunnah, but it can be softly said in the masjid.

shouting slogans - like war cries - in the masjid are extremely off-putting and i consider it disliked in the masjid as it violates the decorum due in the masjid. unfortunately, people shout slogans praising present scholars or recently deceased, in addition to the mention of sahabah.

I completely agree with the Naara thing in the masjid.
I was talking the Naara out of masaajid in other gatherings.
Not sure how this is whining. However I stand firm on the limit thing. This is what I have noticed.

however, this pandemonium encouraged by speakers, naat khwans and - people shouting in the masjid - i doubt anyone would allow it. this also applies to the loud salams after fajr and after juma prayer.

Yes. Specially those from Indo-Pak.

that's because Mawla Ali's radi Allahu 3anhu case is different than the rest of the sahaba, and he has himself narrated it, and as we all know from our societies:

I dont see why its different. Ali radi Allahu 3anhu is ours (sunnis). The Shia they take their responsibility. If us as Sunnis knew properly about him, our community would easily get rid of the closet shias. Thing is it seems like speaking about is censored. I personally feel that teaching people about him correctly is the solution. It would get rid of extremes.

"teachnically"?!

What i mean by that some people might object to it for their reasons, but I see nothing wrong in it, specially in these times where we have a lot of closet shias and tafdheelis. But i have understood that there are difference of opinions on this

let's raise that bar further - you have a3raas of awliyaa like Hazrat Ghaus Pak, or Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti and other radi Allahu 3anhum. so many Sunnis wouldn't be caught dead not attending the 3urs of a famous wali.

do they even know the a3ras of ALL the Badri sahaba?

are all the awliyaa combined greater than any sahabi, be they of the 10 promised ones or not? there were around 124,000 sahaba +/-

Yes of course for the Naaras I dont see them as a necessary thing.
All Awliya combined will never be equal to the smallest sahaaba (in darja).

Apologies if poor choice of words was used. Not a native english speaker.

 

[Aqdas]

But i have understood that there are difference of opinions on this

Not amongst Sunnis. All Sunnis agree the urs of Amir Muawiyah is permitted.

 

[AbdalQadir]

If us as Sunnis knew properly about him, our community would easily get rid of the closet shias.

if only the world was so perfect and life so sweet. you do win a tight hug as a younger brother. may Allah increase you and me in knowledge. aameen.